USMNT Thread: Wandering in the Wilderness

[Buddyboy]

31 minutes ago, Woz said:

After his playing career, but prior to being named the GM? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnie_Stewart

Whether that is good enough, I'll leave to you.

Stewart, in his one interview was clear that his coach would abide his authority. He sounds like his coach will be remote controlled by him. 

In Roger Bennett's podcast, American Fiasco, the impression left is that US Soccer had its wires crossed as to who was in charge.

[LeeEvans]

36 minutes ago, Woz said:

After his playing career, but prior to being named the GM? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnie_Stewart

Whether that is good enough, I'll leave to you.

I'd argue its maybe more than anyone else has had in that role. I'm not arguing the hiring one way or the other, just stating a fact. 

I do think a "wise old head" is the absolute last thing I want. We saw that with Arena and it was cancer.

[LeeEvans]

Can anyone explain to me what exactly an international GM even does?

[Woz]

13 hours ago, Buddyboy said:

Stewart, in his one interview was clear that his coach would abide his authority. He sounds like his coach will be remote controlled by him.

Perhaps that is too small of a sample to make that assertion? It could be that he's saying that he'll be in charge of the technical development for US Soccer (previously, Klinsmann was both manager and Director of Technical Development). Or it could be that he's going to micromanage. We don't know yet.

13 hours ago, Buddyboy said:

In Roger Bennett's podcast, American Fiasco, the impression left is that US Soccer had its wires crossed as to who was in charge.

While I've only listened to the first two episodes, I thought American Fiasco focused on the 1998 WC.

Are we talking about the "bonus episode" with Freakonomics radio? I'll listen to that next.

[Woz]

13 hours ago, LeeEvans said:

I'd argue its maybe more than anyone else has had in that role. I'm not arguing the hiring one way or the other, just stating a fact. 

I do think a "wise old head" is the absolute last thing I want. We saw that with Arena and it was cancer.

I'm not exactly sure what @Buddyboy wants (that's not me criticizing, just honestly commenting).

13 hours ago, LeeEvans said:

Can anyone explain to me what exactly an international GM even does?

Again, I'm guessing, but I'm thinking it supposed to be Tech Dir under a new name? I dunno.

 

Honestly, assuming that it isn't the micromanaging role that Buddyboy fears (and I cannot say it won't be), I want Stewart to look at seriously addressing the points Buddy mentioned on the previous page: doing away with pay-to-play, getting much bigger buy in and interactions with poorly served communities, building up the game and talent pool outside of college (or at least have the NCAA realize that making soccer a "fall sport" (and thus jamming all of the games into four months) is a bad BAD idea).

A child who is eight years old now will be 20 in time for the 2030 WC (sub, getting their feet wet?) and 24 for the 2034 WC (hopefully a main starter). It may be too late for said child, but at least try now to turn the ship.

[LeeEvans]

2 hours ago, Woz said:

I'm not exactly sure what @Buddyboy wants (that's not me criticizing, just honestly commenting).

Again, I'm guessing, but I'm thinking it supposed to be Tech Dir under a new name? I dunno.

 

Honestly, assuming that it isn't the micromanaging role that Buddyboy fears (and I cannot say it won't be), I want Stewart to look at seriously addressing the points Buddy mentioned on the previous page: doing away with pay-to-play, getting much bigger buy in and interactions with poorly served communities, building up the game and talent pool outside of college (or at least have the NCAA realize that making soccer a "fall sport" (and thus jamming all of the games into four months) is a bad BAD idea).

A child who is eight years old now will be 20 in time for the 2030 WC (sub, getting their feet wet?) and 24 for the 2034 WC (hopefully a main starter). It may be too late for said child, but at least try now to turn the ship.

Definitely agree with you, unfortunately these have been issues for a long time and I have trouble seeing them going away too quickly. I would like to see at least some kind of effort to fixing at least part of these would be great. 

[Woz]

44 minutes ago, LeeEvans said:

Definitely agree with you, unfortunately these have been issues for a long time and I have trouble seeing them going away too quickly. I would like to see at least some kind of effort to fixing at least part of these would be great. 

Very true. It's why I'm saying that any fixes on these fronts won't really show up until 2030 at the earliest due to the time it will take to bubble up through the system. However, if USSF doesn't work towards fixing these issues now, it's going to keep soccer on a 2nd/3rd tier internationally speaking for another full generation beyond 2030.

Effectively, the 2022 and 2026 classes are what we have (which, to be fair based on recent performances, isn't that bad!), but if the federation wants to be GREAT, they need to fix the rot now and lift up the next generation.

[Buddyboy]

Wiz said

"I've said it before: 320M people -> (assuming 50:50 M:F) -> 160M men -> (assuming 10% of right age) -> 16M males in 18-27 cohort -> (assuming 1 in 10K has gifts to be a professional athlete) -> 1600 potential pro athletes (assuming 1% of them go into soccer) -> 16 potential professional soccer players to fill the mainstay of the squad"

True, and yet US Soccer Is compelled to bring in overseas passport talent pre WC.

[Woz]

Just now, Buddyboy said:

True, and yet US Soccer Is compelled to bring in overseas passport talent pre WC.

In part because they aren't building the talent in country due to the issues pointed out.

I get that the federation wants the MLS to be a ... well ... a major league. It's not. What it should be is a stepping stone to the top leagues for young, hungry players, not European veterans wanting one last contract and college kids.

To the MLS's credit, they've done a fair amount to improve the talent in CONCACAF. The problem is that the US isn't moving up above that.

[LeeEvans]

37 minutes ago, Woz said:

In part because they aren't building the talent in country due to the issues pointed out.

I get that the federation wants the MLS to be a ... well ... a major league. It's not. What it should be is a stepping stone to the top leagues for young, hungry players, not European veterans wanting one last contract and college kids.

To the MLS's credit, they've done a fair amount to improve the talent in CONCACAF. The problem is that the US isn't moving up above that.

You bring up another major problem for US Soccer that we didn't touch on. US Soccer is tied far too closely to MLS. Jurgen Klinsmann was far from flawless but he was right about Americans needing be playing in top European leagues for the national team to compete. The death blow for this world cup was all the stars coming home after the 2014 World Cup. Tim Howard, Michael Bradley, Clint Dempsey, Jozy Altidore, Alejandro Bedoya, etc coming to MLS caused such a huge down turn in form that I don't think it's even an argument. Michael Bradley was our best player but upon his return to MLS his form fell off a cliff. 

I actually believe that MLS is at a point where we actually might have a foundation to build off of with the academies and rising interest in developing young talent from a league perspective but I think we won't see that impact on a national level for another probably ten years. 

The fact remains that our most talented player and really the star of our team is a player who rose to where he is completely outside of the American soccer structure and format, I don't think that can be ignored. Christian Pulisic is who he is as a player because he went to Europe and learned how to play in a culture that knows how to foster talent, if he had stayed in the US it is likely he would be a complete unknown. 

[Woz]

Just now, LeeEvans said:

Jurgen Klinsmann was far from flawless but he was right about Americans needing be playing in top European leagues for the national team to compete.

I don't know if they need to go to Europe (though that's great if they can make it). But they need to go somewhere they will be forced to compete day in and day out for a job, to sharpen their sword. MLS just isn't that.

Just now, LeeEvans said:

I actually believe that MLS is at a point where we actually might have to build off of with the academies and rising interest in developing young talent from a league perspective but I think we won't see that impact on a national level for another probably ten years. 

Very possible. It's why I said Stewart's mandate should be focusing on the 2030/2034 cycle and leaving the manager to deal with 2022 (and should he not fail, potentially 2026).

Just now, LeeEvans said:

The fact remains that our most talented player and really the star of our team is a player who rose to where he is completely outside of the American soccer structure and format, I don't think that can be ignored. Christian Pulisic is who he is as a player because he went to Europe and learned how to play in a culture that knows how to foster talent, if he had stayed in the US it is likely he would be a complete unknown. 

There's another idea I've kicked around: why aren't we crowd sourcing the talent identification? The US is huge and there are players that are slipping through the cracks for many reasons. Couldn't the USSF come up with some way to say "hey, if you know a 13-16 year old kid who isn't getting seen, show us something here?" Yes, there will be a swamping of parents thinking little Johnny is the next Messi (maybe make a rule that you cannot promote a player who you are related to?), but at least get some attention to filter down to some of these kids who are outside of the structure but cannot follow Pucilic's path? Have other fans vote up players they think the federation should evaluate (no voting down, they're kids after all and I don't want a swamping of votes from the Internet). Yes, you might have a William Hung situation as well ... that is easily dealt with ("we evaluated the player and wish him well.").

[LeeEvans]

5 minutes ago, Woz said:

I don't know if they need to go to Europe (though that's great if they can make it). But they need to go somewhere they will be forced to compete day in and day out for a job, to sharpen their sword. MLS just isn't that.

Very possible. It's why I said Stewart's mandate should be focusing on the 2030/2034 cycle and leaving the manager to deal with 2022 (and should he not fail, potentially 2026).

There's another idea I've kicked around: why aren't we crowd sourcing the talent identification? The US is huge and there are players that are slipping through the cracks for many reasons. Couldn't the USSF come up with some way to say "hey, if you know a 13-16 year old kid who isn't getting seen, show us something here?" Yes, there will be a swamping of parents thinking little Johnny is the next Messi (maybe make a rule that you cannot promote a player who you are related to?), but at least get some attention to filter down to some of these kids who are outside of the structure but cannot follow Pucilic's path? Have other fans vote up players they think the federation should evaluate (no voting down, they're kids after all and I don't want a swamping of votes from the Internet). Yes, you might have a William Hung situation as well ... that is easily dealt with ("we evaluated the player and wish him well.").

You definitely said what I was trying to convey but in a much better way. The location doesn't matter but wherever they are shouldn't be a free ride, players need to be challenged and in a system where they can continue to grow. 

That is certainly an interesting idea and maybe that is a good stop gap solution until the youth soccer problem has a long term solution. It certainly isn't without it's flaws but it might not be a bad way to identify players who slipped through the cracks as you said. 

This definitely isn't a simple solution but I think the problems are pretty easy to identify, just how to solve them is the problem. We might not be able to get them all in one goal but we should be able to start with at least some of them. 

[Buddyboy]

US Soccer Is more mature as an economic force and sport than it was in 1994. At this point is it realistic to expect such top heavy executive control? 

What are the various roles of the NCAA and ODP in talent production? There have to be several hundred ambitious players from these organizations. If they are functionally useless, where will talent emerge from?

How do we embrace the white suburban, urban black and Hispanic players? 

 

[LeeEvans]

11 minutes ago, Buddyboy said:

US Soccer Is more mature as an economic force and sport than it was in 1994. At this point is it realistic to expect such top heavy executive control? 

What are the various roles of the NCAA and ODP in talent production? There have to be several hundred ambitious players from these organizations. If they are functionally useless, where will talent emerge from?

How do we embrace the white suburban, urban black and Hispanic players? 

 

I agree that we are light years ahead of where we were in 1994. Honestly, the progress has been incredible. That being said, if we want to be in the top 10 or 20 nations in the world we are still an incredible ways away. We are still lacking direction from the top down and really that is why Klinsmann was brought in, we wanted a revolution in the production of young players and have them arrive at the national team. There is a great book called Das Reboot by Raphael Honigstein that talks about how Germany basically tore up it's entire youth system and started from scratch. I'm not saying that is the way to go because we are a completely different country but it's an interesting read. 

In terms of NCAA I don't think they have a single thing to do with US Soccer to be honest. That sounds incredibly harsh but if a player goes to college I think they've basically written themselves out of soccer career at the highest level, there is just too much they've missed in their development and those are the most important stages of the career. 

As for the different demographics that is a question that doesn't have an easy answer. White suburbia is, if anything, over represented and really this structure is built upon them. Urban areas are definitely where the focus should be, it's almost completely untapped at that point and if any of the major leagues in the US are an example that is where most of the talent is. There needs to be a blend where everyone has a chance but, at the moment, we're missing a huge amount of the population and a lot of that population is hungry for that opportunity in my opinion. 

[Woz]

14 hours ago, Buddyboy said:

US Soccer Is more mature as an economic force and sport than it was in 1994. At this point is it realistic to expect such top heavy executive control? 

The federation is arguably the single most powerful institution in terms of US soccer and the development of young players. It can drive how coaches are licensed, what skills to emphasize, etc. Given that the country does not have enough clubs to create a local academy structure for everyone, yes, we kind of need some top-down driven changes. That isn't to say we cannot also have bottom-up changes as well.

14 hours ago, Buddyboy said:

What are the various roles of the NCAA and ODP in talent production? There have to be several hundred ambitious players from these organizations. If they are functionally useless, where will talent emerge from?

Functionally speaking, the NCAA is a net negative for the development of professional athletes, especially for soccer. American Football might be the only sport where the professional sport truly benefits from having the NCAA in its talent development chain.

The ODP is a feeder for the USMNT. I don't know how big it is off hand. The main problem with it is that it is being fed via the pay-to-play teams. It can only develop what it is seen.

14 hours ago, Buddyboy said:

How do we embrace the white suburban, urban black and Hispanic players? 

This is one of the main things that the federation will need to address.