IDOG_det Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 One thing to remember is that the base defense won't be a 3-4 or a 4-3. Teams spend well over half of their snaps in a "nickel" defense. The base defense for the Lions last year was a 4-2-5 with only a few games at the end of the year heavily using a real 4-3 defense. At least 5 defensive backs will be on the field the majority of the time. Patricia likes using a 3-3-5 that plays like an even front. Basically, it's a 4-2-5 with one of the DE's being smaller and often in a 2 point stance, not a 3 point stance. The responsibilities are often the same, occasionally that player might be asked to drop in coverage. Although that isn't very different from what the Lions used this past year. Haloti Ngata, Anthony Zettel, Ezekiel Ansah, etc. all dropped into coverage at times last year. There likely won't be a big difference in Patricia's scheme as far as players fitting because his defense adjusts to the players. So far in the playoffs the Patriots have used Marquis Flowers, a reserve/special teams player, as a spy against quarterbacks that have gained lots of yards running the ball. Flowers wasn't a part of their "base scheme" but his skill set (speed) became useful when the Patriots wanted to adjust their defense to take away their opponents strengths. The Patriots like length along their defensive line because it's easier to be able to rush the passer and play the run if you have an 85" wingspan. Ansah has that length, the others don't quite so much, so they'll probably be given a role to fill along the DL similarly to how Flowers was given a role at LB. Patricia's defense isn't based on running a specific scheme and finding fits. Instead it's based on acquiring players with varying skill sets and using those varying skill sets to best match up against your opponent that week. That's why they can make someone like Kyle Van Noy a halfway decent player. He was lost in Detroit having to play a specific role in the defense. With the Patriots, they've created a role that fits him and they use him when that role is needed. Other times they use guys like Marquis Flowers, Elandon Roberts, etc. when their skills are needed. That's what you should see here in Detroit. Ansah and Robinson will be starters on the DL. Ngata should be a starter if he comes back. Another player will be on the LOS. Depending on the role they need at the time that might be Zettel, it might be Hyder, it might be a free agent, it might be a rookie. Jarrad Davis will be a starter at linebacker. Jalen Reeves-Maybin will have a role at LB. They might bring in a free agent to play another role at LB. The Patriots kept a lot of LB's on their roster so it wouldn't surprise me if they draft a rookie or two at LB as well, potentially guys with very defined skill sets. There will likely only be two linebackers on the field though most of the time. The secondary should stay the same, they just need to figure out the CB situation opposite of Slay. Tabor looks to have potential, but he might not be ready to be a #2 CB right now. Lawson might be brought back, although someone like Aaron Colvin is appealing as a #2 CB who can play in the slot when 3 CB's are on the field and then play outside when there are just two. Quin and Diggs will be the safeties and Killebrew will have a rotational role, potentially even playing some linebacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcity2 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 14 hours ago, IDOG_det said: One thing to remember is that the base defense won't be a 3-4 or a 4-3. Teams spend well over half of their snaps in a "nickel" defense. The base defense for the Lions last year was a 4-2-5 with only a few games at the end of the year heavily using a real 4-3 defense. At least 5 defensive backs will be on the field the majority of the time. Patricia likes using a 3-3-5 that plays like an even front. Basically, it's a 4-2-5 with one of the DE's being smaller and often in a 2 point stance, not a 3 point stance. The responsibilities are often the same, occasionally that player might be asked to drop in coverage. Although that isn't very different from what the Lions used this past year. Haloti Ngata, Anthony Zettel, Ezekiel Ansah, etc. all dropped into coverage at times last year. There likely won't be a big difference in Patricia's scheme as far as players fitting because his defense adjusts to the players. So far in the playoffs the Patriots have used Marquis Flowers, a reserve/special teams player, as a spy against quarterbacks that have gained lots of yards running the ball. Flowers wasn't a part of their "base scheme" but his skill set (speed) became useful when the Patriots wanted to adjust their defense to take away their opponents strengths. The Patriots like length along their defensive line because it's easier to be able to rush the passer and play the run if you have an 85" wingspan. Ansah has that length, the others don't quite so much, so they'll probably be given a role to fill along the DL similarly to how Flowers was given a role at LB. Patricia's defense isn't based on running a specific scheme and finding fits. Instead it's based on acquiring players with varying skill sets and using those varying skill sets to best match up against your opponent that week. That's why they can make someone like Kyle Van Noy a halfway decent player. He was lost in Detroit having to play a specific role in the defense. With the Patriots, they've created a role that fits him and they use him when that role is needed. Other times they use guys like Marquis Flowers, Elandon Roberts, etc. when their skills are needed. That's what you should see here in Detroit. Ansah and Robinson will be starters on the DL. Ngata should be a starter if he comes back. Another player will be on the LOS. Depending on the role they need at the time that might be Zettel, it might be Hyder, it might be a free agent, it might be a rookie. Jarrad Davis will be a starter at linebacker. Jalen Reeves-Maybin will have a role at LB. They might bring in a free agent to play another role at LB. The Patriots kept a lot of LB's on their roster so it wouldn't surprise me if they draft a rookie or two at LB as well, potentially guys with very defined skill sets. There will likely only be two linebackers on the field though most of the time. The secondary should stay the same, they just need to figure out the CB situation opposite of Slay. Tabor looks to have potential, but he might not be ready to be a #2 CB right now. Lawson might be brought back, although someone like Aaron Colvin is appealing as a #2 CB who can play in the slot when 3 CB's are on the field and then play outside when there are just two. Quin and Diggs will be the safeties and Killebrew will have a rotational role, potentially even playing some linebacker. Defined skill sets can equal bad drafting and imo is what often seems to happen there. 4-2-5 is where I'd stay They are way to worried on matchups I get it but let's not draft based on this..like oh we don't have a lb that can blitz so let's draft one in rd 1 but sits on the bench until 3rd down.. I'm curious how you feel about how they draft..to me they look for specific things not even bpa.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 15 minutes ago, Rockcity2 said: Defined skill sets can equal bad drafting and imo is what often seems to happen there. They are way to worried on matchups I get it but let's not draft based on this..like oh we don't have a lb that can blitz so let's draft one in rd 1 but sits on the bench until 3rd down.. I'm curious how you feel about how they draft..to me they look for specific things not even bpa.. Drafting players with "defined skill sets" is more of something you do later in the draft. Your early picks are going to have greater overall skill sets that allow them to play earlier and take on greater roles. Jamal Agnew had two defined skills, speed and return ability. He was a good 5th round pick. Jake Rudock had one defined skill, intelligence. He was a good 6th round pick. They could do the same at LB, for example, and draft someone later that has speed and can cover and then draft someone that can rush the passer and take on blocks. That wouldn't happen in the 1st round because a player taken that high, like Jarrad Davis, should be able to do lots of different things and be a full time starter. They certainly don't go with "BPA" instead they draft for need. I don't mind it though because so far they've taken the right approach. They use their 1st round pick to draft someone that can be an immediate starter. Taylor Decker immediately started at LT (they went into the draft with Riley Reiff and Cornelius Lucas as starters) and Jarrad Davis immediately started at LB (Paul Worrilow would have been the other starter). The idea of BPA is nice because, in theory, over time your team will be more talented. In reality, if you draft a player who can play from day 1 and actually play him from day 1, he will develop and become a good player and you'll forget that you might have passed on someone else. It really helps players like Jarrad Davis because playing early exposed some of his weaknesses, so now he has an entire offseason to work on those things. If he had sat, he might not know what exactly he needs to improve in. Also, "BPA" sometimes isn't actually right. Like when the Lions took Nick Fairley, that didn't work out, but it was "BPA". In the 2nd round they still draft for need, they just don't draft that player to a position where he needs to play every snap. A LT has to play every snap, so that's a 1st rounder. A starting LB should play every snap, so that's a 1st rounder. A DT like A'Shawn Robinson will rotate even if he develops into a great player, so he makes sense as a 2nd rounder. The majority of CB's need time to develop, so it made sense to draft Tabor in the 2nd round so he can rotate in while he develops and then take over as a starter with Lawson and Hayden having expiring contracts this offseason. You don't rely on a 3rd rounder to be an immediate starter, but you do expect them to be starters and relatively quickly. Graham Glasgow sat behind Laken Tomlinson year 1 but got some action when guys got hurt. They then traded Tomlinson to be able to start Glasgow year 2. Swanson's contract is expiring this year and now Glasgow will likely be expected to replace his spot on the OL. Kenny Golladay got drafted to play behind Marvin Jones and Golden Tate and to rotate with TJ Jones (and honestly I think they expected Boldin to be back too). He rotated in with TJ Jones sharing the 3rd WR spot and this year he'll be expected to play that 3rd WR spot full time. Next year Golden Tate's contract expires, we could see the Lions let him walk if they believe that Golladay is ready to replace him as the #2 WR in the offense. The 3rd round is the last round you can expect to find starters for most positions. The 4th round you expect to find rotational players that have the upside to be starters down the line. Miles Killebrew came in on 3rd downs his rookie year and covered TE's. This last year his role expanded early in the season then went away when Teryl Austin decided (for some reason) to run more 4-3 looks at the end of the year. This year he still won't be a starter, but he will rotate in and contribute. Diggs is on an expiring contract this year, if Killebrew looks good enough he will be given a shot to take over the starting spot next year (assuming Diggs isn't extended/re-signed). Jalen Reeves-Maybin played a rotational role in the defense this year playing in space sometimes going out over the slot to cover guys. He will likely have a rotational role again this year and will be given a chance to compete for a starting job. Michael Roberts rotated in at TE with Darren Fells and will be given the chance to compete for the #2 TE job going forward. This is where those "defined skill sets" come into play. The talent at this point likely isn't going to be enough to be a day 1 starter so if you can find players with clear skills you can at least carve out a role for them to get them on the field and give them a chance to develop. Killebrew is big for a safety but can cover TE's and RB's. Jalen Reeves-Maybin is fast, has the potential to cover really well, and attacks screens very well. Michael Roberts is huge, is very quick for his size, and has great hands. He is a potential red zone threat because of his size and hands, and he also has potential as a blocker. 5th round you draft backups that can potentially contribute on special teams or guys that can just be good backups. Joe Dahl was drafted to be a backup, he's been cross-trained at basically every spot along the OL in training camp. He's been a good pick so far and is ready to fill in for injury anywhere they need him. Antwione Williams was a run-stopping LB that was never going to be a starter with his cover skills but could perhaps play in short yardage situations. He didn't stand out on special teams and never really had a clear role on defense so he got cut. Jamal Agnew will likely never be a starting CB (although he could end up having a role in the slot) but he earned his spot on the team by being a really good ST contributor. This is basically the end of the "real draft". Rounds 1-3 get you starters, round 4 gets you rotational players/developmental players, round 5 gets you strong backups/strong special teams contributors. Round 6 and 7 are basically first dibs on undrafted free agents. 6th round they got Jake Rudock to be their backup QB. This is basically the same as signing a QB as a UDFA because he was eventually waived to be put in the practice squad. Brad Kaaya was drafted in the same round for the same reason. Just early dibs on another QB that will eventually be waived to put on the practice squad. Basically they're just gambling with these picks hoping one of these QB's eventually turns out to be pretty good and can then be traded for a real draft pick. They also got Jeremiah Ledbetter in the 6th. He is a DT that was used at DE in college, teams were unsure of where he would play, was injured so he didn't have much of a chance to work out for teams. Another example of a guy who was basically a UDFA that they just got early dibs on by taking him in the 6th. The 7th round is the same way. Anthony Zettel is another player that teams were unsure of, they grabbed him in the 7th round so they wouldn't have to try to sign him with other teams also trying to sign him. Pat O'Connor had a good pro day so they drafted him instead of having to compete with the other teams he impressed to sign him as a UDFA. I like the way they draft, it has nuance and it actually takes a realistic approach to the draft and to the offseason. It's fine to go into the draft with some needs because you can fill them there. You're better off drafting for need than going into the season with a hole on the roster. Sometimes free agency is pretty weak and they will need to rely on the draft. Pass rushers are basically non-existent in FA this year and there are only a handful of worthwhile DT's, although they might be overpriced. The Lions give themselves the chance to not rely on that poor free agency and go into a strong defensive line draft with the intention of drafting some of them early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcity2 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 3 hours ago, IDOG_det said: Drafting players with "defined skill sets" is more of something you do later in the draft. Your early picks are going to have greater overall skill sets that allow them to play earlier and take on greater roles. Jamal Agnew had two defined skills, speed and return ability. He was a good 5th round pick. Jake Rudock had one defined skill, intelligence. He was a good 6th round pick. They could do the same at LB, for example, and draft someone later that has speed and can cover and then draft someone that can rush the passer and take on blocks. That wouldn't happen in the 1st round because a player taken that high, like Jarrad Davis, should be able to do lots of different things and be a full time starter. They certainly don't go with "BPA" instead they draft for need. I don't mind it though because so far they've taken the right approach. They use their 1st round pick to draft someone that can be an immediate starter. Taylor Decker immediately started at LT (they went into the draft with Riley Reiff and Cornelius Lucas as starters) and Jarrad Davis immediately started at LB (Paul Worrilow would have been the other starter). The idea of BPA is nice because, in theory, over time your team will be more talented. In reality, if you draft a player who can play from day 1 and actually play him from day 1, he will develop and become a good player and you'll forget that you might have passed on someone else. It really helps players like Jarrad Davis because playing early exposed some of his weaknesses, so now he has an entire offseason to work on those things. If he had sat, he might not know what exactly he needs to improve in. Also, "BPA" sometimes isn't actually right. Like when the Lions took Nick Fairley, that didn't work out, but it was "BPA". In the 2nd round they still draft for need, they just don't draft that player to a position where he needs to play every snap. A LT has to play every snap, so that's a 1st rounder. A starting LB should play every snap, so that's a 1st rounder. A DT like A'Shawn Robinson will rotate even if he develops into a great player, so he makes sense as a 2nd rounder. The majority of CB's need time to develop, so it made sense to draft Tabor in the 2nd round so he can rotate in while he develops and then take over as a starter with Lawson and Hayden having expiring contracts this offseason. You don't rely on a 3rd rounder to be an immediate starter, but you do expect them to be starters and relatively quickly. Graham Glasgow sat behind Laken Tomlinson year 1 but got some action when guys got hurt. They then traded Tomlinson to be able to start Glasgow year 2. Swanson's contract is expiring this year and now Glasgow will likely be expected to replace his spot on the OL. Kenny Golladay got drafted to play behind Marvin Jones and Golden Tate and to rotate with TJ Jones (and honestly I think they expected Boldin to be back too). He rotated in with TJ Jones sharing the 3rd WR spot and this year he'll be expected to play that 3rd WR spot full time. Next year Golden Tate's contract expires, we could see the Lions let him walk if they believe that Golladay is ready to replace him as the #2 WR in the offense. The 3rd round is the last round you can expect to find starters for most positions. The 4th round you expect to find rotational players that have the upside to be starters down the line. Miles Killebrew came in on 3rd downs his rookie year and covered TE's. This last year his role expanded early in the season then went away when Teryl Austin decided (for some reason) to run more 4-3 looks at the end of the year. This year he still won't be a starter, but he will rotate in and contribute. Diggs is on an expiring contract this year, if Killebrew looks good enough he will be given a shot to take over the starting spot next year (assuming Diggs isn't extended/re-signed). Jalen Reeves-Maybin played a rotational role in the defense this year playing in space sometimes going out over the slot to cover guys. He will likely have a rotational role again this year and will be given a chance to compete for a starting job. Michael Roberts rotated in at TE with Darren Fells and will be given the chance to compete for the #2 TE job going forward. This is where those "defined skill sets" come into play. The talent at this point likely isn't going to be enough to be a day 1 starter so if you can find players with clear skills you can at least carve out a role for them to get them on the field and give them a chance to develop. Killebrew is big for a safety but can cover TE's and RB's. Jalen Reeves-Maybin is fast, has the potential to cover really well, and attacks screens very well. Michael Roberts is huge, is very quick for his size, and has great hands. He is a potential red zone threat because of his size and hands, and he also has potential as a blocker. 5th round you draft backups that can potentially contribute on special teams or guys that can just be good backups. Joe Dahl was drafted to be a backup, he's been cross-trained at basically every spot along the OL in training camp. He's been a good pick so far and is ready to fill in for injury anywhere they need him. Antwione Williams was a run-stopping LB that was never going to be a starter with his cover skills but could perhaps play in short yardage situations. He didn't stand out on special teams and never really had a clear role on defense so he got cut. Jamal Agnew will likely never be a starting CB (although he could end up having a role in the slot) but he earned his spot on the team by being a really good ST contributor. This is basically the end of the "real draft". Rounds 1-3 get you starters, round 4 gets you rotational players/developmental players, round 5 gets you strong backups/strong special teams contributors. Round 6 and 7 are basically first dibs on undrafted free agents. 6th round they got Jake Rudock to be their backup QB. This is basically the same as signing a QB as a UDFA because he was eventually waived to be put in the practice squad. Brad Kaaya was drafted in the same round for the same reason. Just early dibs on another QB that will eventually be waived to put on the practice squad. Basically they're just gambling with these picks hoping one of these QB's eventually turns out to be pretty good and can then be traded for a real draft pick. They also got Jeremiah Ledbetter in the 6th. He is a DT that was used at DE in college, teams were unsure of where he would play, was injured so he didn't have much of a chance to work out for teams. Another example of a guy who was basically a UDFA that they just got early dibs on by taking him in the 6th. The 7th round is the same way. Anthony Zettel is another player that teams were unsure of, they grabbed him in the 7th round so they wouldn't have to try to sign him with other teams also trying to sign him. Pat O'Connor had a good pro day so they drafted him instead of having to compete with the other teams he impressed to sign him as a UDFA. I like the way they draft, it has nuance and it actually takes a realistic approach to the draft and to the offseason. It's fine to go into the draft with some needs because you can fill them there. You're better off drafting for need than going into the season with a hole on the roster. Sometimes free agency is pretty weak and they will need to rely on the draft. Pass rushers are basically non-existent in FA this year and there are only a handful of worthwhile DT's, although they might be overpriced. The Lions give themselves the chance to not rely on that poor free agency and go into a strong defensive line draft with the intention of drafting some of them early. Just what I feared.. Free agents aren't gonna come here like they do new england either.. these drafts are gonna be interesting.. and not in a good way I'm betting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I'm surprised that no one has posted about this yet... Lions are expected to hire: - Jeff Davidson (OL) - George Godsey (QB's) - Brian Stewart (DB's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcity2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: I'm surprised that no one has posted about this yet... Lions are expected to hire: - Jeff Davidson (OL) - George Godsey (QB's) - Brian Stewart (DB's) Man.. guess they sacrifice for buddies too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, Rockcity2 said: Man.. guess they sacrifice for buddies too I guess someone was really happy with 9-7 and first round eliminations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcity2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: I guess someone was really happy with 9-7 and first round eliminations. Does this put us over the top? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Rockcity2 said: Does this put us over the top? Lol It tells us that we have a new standard. That going over.500 and occasionally making it into the playoffs isn't good enough. Could this set us back? Yeah, it's a risk. Could it be what takes us to the next level? Absolutely it could. A lot of signs point in that direction but nothing is guaranteed. I'd rather that we tried and failed than be satisfied with mediocrity. Caldwell deserves credit for bringing our standard and expectations up. It's time to move into the next tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcity2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: It tells us that we have a new standard. That going over.500 and occasionally making it into the playoffs isn't good enough. Could this set us back? Yeah, it's a risk. Could it be what takes us to the next level? Absolutely it could. A lot of signs point in that direction but nothing is guaranteed. I'd rather that we tried and failed than be satisfied with mediocrity. Caldwell deserves credit for bringing our standard and expectations up. It's time to move into the next tier. These three guys you brought up are the definition of mediocrity.. One I think has never coached the position.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Rockcity2 said: These three guys you brought up are the definition of mediocrity.. One I think has never coached the position.. I didn't bring them up... they're the ones who are likely to be hired according to a few sources. Neither of us work in this business and likely have a tenth of the knowledge MP and Co. have. I'm going to defer my thoughts on how well his staff will do. I'm hopeful that there will be cohesiveness at the different levels and we'll move forward in a positive fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcity2 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Karnage84 said: I didn't bring them up... they're the ones who are likely to be hired according to a few sources. Neither of us work in this business and likely have a tenth of the knowledge MP and Co. have. I'm going to defer my thoughts on how well his staff will do. I'm hopeful that there will be cohesiveness at the different levels and we'll move forward in a positive fashion. What's there to have knowledge about..you see what they have done. Is coaching chemistry really gonna bring our ol together.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnage84 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rockcity2 said: What's there to have knowledge about..you see what they have done. Is coaching chemistry really gonna bring our ol together.. Well, the fact that Davidson was in Minnesota for 5 years and has only moved to other teams when a new HC was brought in (as is fairly typical). He was also OC in Carolina for 4 years. So he has experience. Quote 2009 season In week 7 of the 2009 NFL season, Williams broke a 77-yard run against the Cardinals, breaking his previous record of 75 yards, which was also set against Arizona. The Panthers got their revenge from the previous year's playoff loss as they beat the Cardinals 34-21. In a game against Tampa Bay, Williams had 152 Rushing yards as he scored the game-winning touchdown in Carolina's 28-21 win. Despite missing all of 3 games and most of 2 more due to injury, Williams managed to rush for 1,117 yards and 7 touchdowns on 216 carries, as well as receiving for 252 yards on 29 catches, earning himself a spot in the Pro Bowl. He and Jonathan Stewart became the first running back duo in NFL History to rush for 1,110 yards apiece (with Stewart rushing for 1,133 yards), as well as becoming the first Panther running back to rush for 1,000 in consecutive seasons. During the 2010 Pro Bowl, Williams scored a touchdown on a 7-yard run, the first by a Panthers player in team history. He finished the game with 2 carries for 6 yards and a touchdown, as well as a 15-yard reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeAngelo_Williams This was during Davidsons tenure as OC. We have complained about our issues with the run game. This guy seems to be able to help in that dept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lioneye22 Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 Would love to see him stay with the 4-3 , but we'll see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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