Jets trade up to 3

[Bobby816]

9 minutes ago, barnaby8787 said:

Dude, come on now.  And yes, his arm strength was/is bad.  It's inline with Pennington's.

So bc Mayfields arm strength is a little better he should go top 3? My main point of the comparison... is it’s 2 undersized QBs who played in the Big 12, spread offense that put up tons of stats. Similar athleticism and decision making. Daniel has significantly less offensive talent as well. Both starters for several years as well. For me that’s a better comparison than to say Wilson. For me that’s about as lazy of a comparison as it gets. What makes Wilson Wilson is his athleticism, which Mayfield doesn’t have.

[jetskid007]

33 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Figured out my comparison for Mayfield finally.

Chase Daniel!!!

I don't see it besides height and production. 

I have a far better "best-case" comparison for him. Comparing Mayfield to other QBs who are shorter than 6'1" has become popular, but its a little lazy... Forget height, he looks just like a particular current NFL QB on film. The difference is one was drafted on Day 2 and was awarded time to develop (NOT Russell Wilson), whereas Baker will be drafted in the top 5 and be asked to start within a year... 

That's the only hints I'll give. When I finalize my "what I think will happen" mock (aiming for next Thursday) I will release my analysis with it, whether I make Baker the pick or not. 

 

[Bobby816]

5 minutes ago, Rockice_8 said:

I've seen you post multiple times about these two specifically with a strong stance on Rosen over Mayfield.  I disagree and think it's way closer than you but that's not the point of this post.  I think Mayfield is far more advanced than you and personality aside if he was 2" inches taller I think he's the consensus best QB in this draft.

Anyway that wasn't the point of the post.  The question I have is you clearly love Rosen as do I so let me make that clear.  I have the ever so slight edge to Mayfield but love Rosen.  The reason I edge Mayfield over Rosen is pocket presence and injury concerns.  What are your thoughts on Rosen and his ability to stay healthy because if you told me he would be 100% healthy I'm running to the podium for him.  I just have serious reservations about that due to his slight frame (yes only 21 so it could improve) and his slow feet (not a major concern if he's smart with the football and get it out quickly ala Eli, Brady etc.).  

I just think that mix of slow feet, injury history and slight frame is a real issue for him when real NFL players come for him.  Thoughts?

Injuries are actually the ONLY thing I can see the knock on Rosen for. My opinion is it’s akways worrisome... but the talent exceeds that. Also in today’s nfk where if you fart on a QB it’s RTP... he’s more protected. And like you mentioned... he’s young and will add bulk. For comparison... I think he’s 2 years younger than mayfield if I’m correct.

[barnaby8787]

5 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

So bc Mayfields arm strength is a little better he should go top 3? My main point of the comparison... is it’s 2 undersized QBs who played in the Big 12, spread offense that put up tons of stats. Similar athleticism and decision making. Daniel has significantly less offensive talent as well. Both starters for several years as well. For me that’s a better comparison than to say Wilson. For me that’s about as lazy of a comparison as it gets. What makes Wilson Wilson is his athleticism, which Mayfield doesn’t have.

A little better?  It's a lot better.  There's a reason Chase was undrafted in a weak QB class and Baker is going top 10 in a strong one.

[jetskid007]

21 minutes ago, Rockice_8 said:

The reason I edge Mayfield over Rosen is pocket presence and injury concerns.  What are your thoughts on Rosen and his ability to stay healthy because if you told me he would be 100% healthy I'm running to the podium for him.  I just have serious reservations about that due to his slight frame (yes only 21 so it could improve) and his slow feet (not a major concern if he's smart with the football and get it out quickly ala Eli, Brady etc.).  

I just think that mix of slow feet, injury history and slight frame is a real issue for him when real NFL players come for him.  Thoughts?

First, I don’t see slow feet. I see him as a player that has such smooth footwork that it can appear to be slow, but he’s much more refined. Look at his 3-cone time as evidence. 

Second, yes, injuries are something to monitor, however, Baker has had lower body injuries and concussions as well. It just so happens that Rosen’s have been more recent. I’d be lying if I said they weren’t “concerns” but I think Rosen has the frame to pack on another 5-10 lbs in an NFL strength program (he was 226 at the combine) and I do think he’ll learn to become more proficient in the pocket. The number one thing is being able to keep eyes down field (which he does); with that down, coaches can teach him how to avoid hits. 

The main concern I have with Rosen is the concussions. If he gets a few more, is he going to contemplate retiring? He suggested no recently, stating while he fears concussions he’s not jumping to conclusions on the topics of CTE because there’s not enough facts and that they sign up for the game knowing concussions will happen - there’s no guaranteeing he’ll feel the same way 8 years from now. 

 

And no, if Baker was 2 inches taller I think I’d view him in the same light I do right now. He’s like Jared Goff in the sense that I don’t think he can put a team on his back, but he can perform if the coaching, scheme, and talent around him all sync. With Rosen, I see a player that can fit in any scheme and can elevate the talent around him... dare I say like Peyton?

 

[Bobby816]

I think the main thing I see is this.

Rosen in himself will be a franchise QB.

Mayfield needs the coaching, players and scheme to be a franchise QB.

Since we don’t have the players. And don’t know if we have the scheme or coach to help him be a franchise QB... it’s a no brainer for me that you take Rosen over Mayfield.

[barnaby8787]

2 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

I think the main thing I see is this.

Rosen in himself will be a franchise QB.

Mayfield needs the coaching, players and scheme to be a franchise QB.

Since we don’t have the players. And don’t know if we have the scheme or coach to help him be a franchise QB... it’s a no brainer for me that you take Rosen over Mayfield.

Every player need the coaching, players, and scheme to be a franchise QB.  Put Alex Smith in a vertical offense with no receivers and he'd suck.  

[Bobby816]

28 minutes ago, barnaby8787 said:

A little better?  It's a lot better.  There's a reason Chase was undrafted in a weak QB class and Baker is going top 10 in a strong one.

And I disagree with that. Back when Daniel was playing the spread system wasn’t nearly as common as it is now. So it was looked at as a huge knock on him, where as now tons of teams run it. Package that with him being nearly 2” shorter than that of Mayfield that’s why he was an UDFA. I’ll 100% say I think Mayfield is a better prospect than that if Daniel. But I just cannot get behind Mayfield being 3rd pick worthy. At 6 I said I’d be ok with drafting him. At 3 I’ll even be ok with drafting him. But will not like it at all of Darnold or Rosen are available. I don’t think at all Darnold will be there... but Rosen I think will. And I believe drafting Mayfield over Rosen will haunt us. Especially if it’s the Bills or Dolphins who then trade up and grab him.

[Bobby816]

1 minute ago, barnaby8787 said:

Every player need the coaching, players, and scheme to be a franchise QB.  Put Alex Smith in a vertical offense with no receivers and he'd suck.  

The greats don’t need that though. You can put Brady, Rodgers, Brees in any system and they will succeed. My point is... you don’t need to cater every detail of the franchise to Rosen like you do with Mayfield. Of course you want to add weapons and try and work the best scheme for your QB. But the options are way more wide open with Rosen then that of Mayfield.

 

Another thing I haven’t seen may talk about is how long Mayfield had to throw a lot of the time. You watch some of his highlights and he has a lot of TDs where he had like 8 seconds to throw the ball with no one close to him. Something that will never happen at the next level.

[Sandwhich2]

I'm so confused how Mayfield keeps getting "pocket presence" as a strength when it's one of my biggest concerns with him. 

 

[SDotNova]

Every QB is a system QB even the greats. Have Brady run RPOs and see what happens. 

You are giving credit to Oklahoma's success to everyone except their main guy. Baker is the only first round talent they have on that offense. Aside from Baker, they have a TE who may be a day 2 pick and another FB/TE who is a day 3 pick. They also have an OT who will likely be a day 2 pick. Maquise Brown may also eventually be a day 2 prospects. I'm sure you have more NFL talent on USC. Georgia and OSU definitely have more NFL talent on their defenses. 

[SDotNova]

3 minutes ago, Sandwhich2 said:

I'm so confused how Mayfield keeps getting "pocket presence" as a strength when it's one of my biggest concerns with him. 

 

He does get happy feet some times. He needs to settle down a bit. Not sure how that is a strength either. Maybe it's not a weakness. To me his biggest strengths are decision making and deep ball accuracy. 

[jetskid007]

You all may think I'm crazy, but I think there's only two things that separates Josh Rosen and Peyton Manning as prospects: (1) name; (2) maturity & intangible questions. Look at Manning's player profile from 1998... 

To take it a step further, look at some of the measurables... 

• Manning: 6'5 1/4", 230 lb., (27.1 BMI), 31.5" arm, 10.125" hand, 28 wonderlic
• Rosen:   6'4", 226 lb. (27.5 BMI), 31.75" arm, 9.875" hand, 29 wonderlic 

 

That's how I look at Rosen. Maybe not the same career as Peyton, but he has the kind of talent where he can put a team on his back and consistently win for you. He can become a chess player at the QB position, essentially an offensive coordinator on the field, as he develops in one specific offensive scheme going forward and learns how to read and pick apart NFL defenses. Whether or not he's as committed to the game as Manning will make the difference between him being a future Hall of Famer or not, with his worst case being Matt Ryan if he stays healthy. 

[SDotNova]

8 hours ago, KingOfTheDot said:

Dammit Nova it was a joke

Haha. My bad. I'm too serious on this board that I miss stuff. I'm on the edge with these QBs. They should just move the draft to this weekend. 

[Sandwhich2]

2 minutes ago, SDotNova said:

He does get happy feet some times. He needs to settle down a bit. Not sure how that is a strength either. Maybe it's not a weakness. To me his biggest strengths are decision making and deep ball accuracy. 

Deep ball accuracy? For real? I found one "deep ball" in 5 games watching Mayfield that didn't require his WR to make a drastic adjustment and it was to Dede Westbrook in 2016.

His strengths arr his mobility, intermediate accuracy, and that he reads the field better than probably any of the QBs in the class. His deep ball is very problematic to me, and I don't think he actually knows how to properly sit and deliver in the pocket but realizes on very good mobility to get our and reset his feet. I barely ever saw him take a step up, reset, throw or even side step, reset, and throw. It's alway, Wait until pocket breaks down, run away 5 to 6 steps, reset, throw. He gets away with that because he's got a very quick release and gets back into stance quickly, but it worries me. 

Still Rosen for me as my top choice. I'd be fine with Baker also but I can't understand some of the evaluations on him. His height has nothing to do with my evaluation by the way, so don't come at me with that.