Da_Ducktator Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Everything is updated as far as position rankings (as well as the Big Board included there) in Duck's Draft Central. Final Mock Draft will be coming tomorrow afternoon. Any questions regarding the board, feel free to ask/critic. I think this is a really solid draft class and ultimately gave out 25 1st round grades (LVE being the last because in the end, the guy has an insane athletic profile even if his tape is solid, but rarely 'wows'). Player School Position Grade NFL Comp 1 Quenton Nelson Notre Dame OG Elite Zack Martin 2 Saquon Barkley Penn State RB/KR Elite LaDainian Tomlinson 3 Denzel Ward Ohio State CB Elite Champ Bailey 4 Minkah Fitzpatrick Alabama S/CB Elite Tyrann Mathieu 5 Sam Darnold USC QB Top 10 Philip Rivers 6 Bradley Chubb North Carolina State EDGE Top 10 Chris Long 7 Vita Vea Washington DT Top 10 Dontari Poe 8 Harold Landry III Boston College EDGE Top 15 Vic Beasley 9 Derwin James Florida State S/LB Top 15 Reshad Jones 10 Tremaine Edmunds Virginia Tech LB Top 15 Julian Peterson 11 Roquan Smith Georgia WLB Top 15 Lavonte David 12 Frank Ragnow Arkansas C/OG Top 15 Travis Frederick 13 Will Hernandez UTEP OG Top 20 Trai Turner 14 Derrius Guice LSU RB/KR Top 20 Jordan Howard 15 Da'Ron Payne Alabama DT Top 20 Marcel Darues 16 Josh Sweat Florida State EDGE Top 20 Robert Quinn 17 Taven Bryan Florida DT Top 20 Derek Wolfe 18 Jaire Alexander Louisville CB Top 20 Leon Hall 19 Lamar Jackson Louisville QB/ATH Late 1st Kordell Stewart 20 Brian O'Neill Pittsburgh OT Late 1st Terron Armstead 21 Connor Williams Texas OG/OT Late 1st Robert Gallery 22 Courtland Sutton SMU WR Late 1st Dez Bryant 23 Mike Gesicki Penn State TE Late 1st Jimmy Graham 24 Josh Jackson Iowa CB/FS Late 1st Antrel Rolle 25 Leighton Vander Esch Boise State ILB/SLB Late 1st Keith Bulluck 26 Mike Hughes Central Florida CB/KR/PR Early 2nd Desmond King 27 Austin Corbett Nevada IOL/OT Early 2nd Forrest Lamp 28 James Daniels Iowa C Early 2nd Jason Kelce 29 Isaiah Wynn Georgia IOL/OT Early 2nd T.J. Lang 30 Mike McGlinchey Jr. Notre Dame OT Early 2nd Doug Free 31 Marcus Davenport UTSA EDGE Early 2nd Kyle Vanden Bosch 32 Isaiah Oliver Colorado CB Early 2nd Nnamdi Asomugha 33 Lorenzo Carter Georgia OLB/EDGE Early 2nd Leonard Floyd 34 Rashaan Evans Alabama LB/EDGE Early 2nd Navorro Bowman 35 Baker Mayfield Oklahoma QB Early 2nd Case Keenum 36 Josh Allen Wyoming QB Early 2nd Aaron Brooks 37 Ronnie Harrison Alabama S Early 2nd Ken Hamlin 38 Ronald Jones III USC RB Early 2nd Brian Westbrook 39 Sony Michel Georgia RB Early 2nd LeSean McCoy 40 Josh Adams Notre Dame RB Early 2nd DeMarco Murray 41 Dallas Goedert South Dakota State TE Early 2nd Tyler Eifert 42 D.J. Moore Maryland WR Early 2nd Randall Cobb 43 B.J. Hill North Carolina State DT Early 2nd Sheldon Rankins 44 Harrison Phillips Stanford DT Mid 2nd Darnell Dockett 45 Dane Cruikshank Arizona SS/FS Mid 2nd Michael Huff 46 Fred Warner BYU OLB Mid 2nd Eric Kendricks 47 Anthony Miller Memphis WR Mid 2nd Victor Cruz 48 Rashaad Penny San Diego State RB/KR Mid 2nd Michael Turner 49 Josh Rosen UCLA QB Mid 2nd Jimmy Clausen 50 Nick Chubb Georgia RB Mid 2nd Jonathan Stewart 51 Billy Price Ohio State C Mid 2nd LeCharles Bentley 52 Uchenna Nwosu USC EDGE/OLB Mid 2nd Anthony Barr 53 Quenton Meeks Stanford CB Mid 2nd Kayvon Webster 54 Tarvarius Moore Southern Miss FS Mid 2nd Damarious Randall 55 Kevin Toliver II LSU CB Late 2nd Trae Waynes 56 Donte' Jackson LSU CB/KR/PR Late 2nd Devin Hester 57 Nathan Shepherd Fort Hays State DT Late 2nd John Thornton 58 Martinas Rankin Mississippi State IOL/OT Late 2nd Andy Levitre 59 Brandon Parker North Carolina A&T OT Late 2nd Eugene Monroe 60 Kolton Miller UCLA OT Late 2nd Jared Veldheer 61 Kemoko Turay Rutgers EDGE/OLB Late 2nd Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila 62 Genard Avery Memphis LB/EDGE Late 2nd Haason Reddick 63 Duke Ejiofor Wake Forest EDGE Late 2nd Derrick Morgan 64 Rasheem Green USC EDGE/DT Late 2nd Cory Redding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlNFL19 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Looks pretty good but no really overly interesting takes in here, no offense. I've seen almost all of these guys similarly placed before. What are your thoughts on Mark Walton, RB, Miami? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Ducktator Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, AlNFL19 said: Looks pretty good but no really overly interesting takes in here, no offense. I've seen almost all of these guys similarly placed before. What are your thoughts on Mark Walton, RB, Miami? Frank Ragnow 12th Will Hernandez 13th Josh Sweat 16th Brian O'Neill 20th Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen as 2nd rounders. But you've seen this before? I'm not even going for shock value (which sounds like all you care about), just going by what I see. Mark Walton is James White 2.0. He'll be a good change of pace back who can provide value on 3rd downs. Let me guess, you're one of the people that has Walton as a top 10 prospect though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlNFL19 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Da_Ducktator said: Frank Ragnow 12th Will Hernandez 13th Josh Sweat 16th Brian O'Neill 20th Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen and Josh Rosen as 2nd rounders. But you've seen this before? I'm not even going for shock value (which sounds like all you care about), just going by what I see. - Except O’Neill, yup. Mark Walton is James White 2.0. He'll be a good change of pace back who can provide value on 3rd downs. - Not really. Let me guess, you're one of the people that has Walton as a top 10 prospect though? - Indeed lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Ducktator Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 40 minutes ago, AlNFL19 said: Good to know somebody who doesn't post all year comes and posts one-liners with a few splash rankings to grabs people attention. Love for you to show me all these people that supposedly have Ragnow and Hernandez top 15, three of the "big five" QBs as 2nd's, with Austin Corbett as high as I do or Josh Adams for that matter. And that's not even mentioning Cruik, Oren Burks, Cichy, Natrell Jamerson, or Shaquem Griffin all top 100 (last three I all have as 3rds in my position ranking). Or just drop some desperate plea for attention like Mark Walton is a franchise saving running back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlNFL19 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 7 hours ago, Da_Ducktator said: Good to know somebody who doesn't post all year comes and posts one-liners with a few splash rankings to grabs people attention. This is my first year on this site I literally registered a couple months ago... And I already put out a thread with my Rankings and stuff. Sorry I don’t have a time machine to go back and post stuff earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 10 hours ago, Da_Ducktator said: Good to know somebody who doesn't post all year comes and posts one-liners with a few splash rankings to grabs people attention. Love for you to show me all these people that supposedly have Ragnow and Hernandez top 15, three of the "big five" QBs as 2nd's, with Austin Corbett as high as I do or Josh Adams for that matter. And that's not even mentioning Cruik, Oren Burks, Cichy, Natrell Jamerson, or Shaquem Griffin all top 100 (last three I all have as 3rds in my position ranking). Or just drop some desperate plea for attention like Mark Walton is a franchise saving running back... 2 hours ago, AlNFL19 said: This is my first year on this site I literally registered a couple months ago... And I already put out a thread with my Rankings and stuff. Sorry I don’t have a time machine to go back and post stuff earlier. To be fair, @AlNFL19 did put up a thread. And he's tried to put counter analysis in the other posts, not just one-liners here. No need to go after how long he's posted here. People have to start somewhere. I like how you broke down the Big Board into tiers - keep doing that. It's nice to see you underfill the tiers, too. It helps contextualize if you think the draft is deep or not. And not pull a Jon Gruden and put 100 guys in a top 25 list lol. What might help in future ranks that's a simple thing to do - I think if you had separated lines between the top 30 ranks where you see a big talent gap (as top 10 and top 15 and top 20 isn't necessarily easy to conceptualize a talent gap, other than numerically), it would likely look even more different than CW - not that you have to be different than CW, but it heightens the picks you put in, like Ward as a top 3 talent over say Chubb. That's a non-CW opinion, or at least, an opinion you'd get a lot of dissent on. I think the top 10/top 15/top 20 made it hard to see much separation at work, if you see a gap there. It's a ton of work to do these ranks, we have a big board, and people stop at 5 with us at 1.5. I went to 20-25 just because we might get to 1.12 and 1.22, and it's a ton of work, and a 2-round big board even more so. So much respect there. Don't take critique as criticism, the ensuing discussion is really how we learn, even if the critique doesn't hold. The Ward, Vea, Sweat and Warner takes are very aggressive. I like the boldness there. I do think you're underselling Rosen by a fair amount, unless the injury risk is what's driving the rank down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Ducktator Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Broncofan said: I like how you broke down the Big Board into tiers - keep doing that. It's nice to see you underfill the tiers, too. It helps contextualize if you think the draft is deep or not. And not pull a Jon Gruden and put 100 guys in a top 25 list lol. What might help in future ranks that's a simple thing to do - I think if you had separated lines between the top 30 ranks where you see a big talent gap (as top 10 and top 15 and top 20 isn't necessarily easy to conceptualize a talent gap, other than numerically), it would like different than CW - not that you have to be different than CW, but it heightens the picks you put in, like Ward as a top 3 talent over say Chubb. That's a non-CW opinion, or at least, an opinion you'd get a lot of dissent on. I think the top 10/top 15/top 20 made it hard to see much separation at work, if you see a gap there. It's a ton of work to do these ranks, we have a big board, and people stop at 5 with us at 1.5. I went to 20-25 just because we might get to 1.12 and 1.22, and it's a ton of work, and a 2-round big board even more so. So much respect there. Don't take critique as criticism, the ensuing discussion is really how we learn, even if the critique doesn't hold. The Ward, Vea, Sweat and Warner takes are very aggressive. I like the boldness there. I do think you're underselling Rosen by a fair amount, unless the injury risk is what's driving the rank down. Appreciate the notes and get where you're coming from on separating the top 1st round tiers as well. Denzel is an elite athlete at the position and honestly, the guy doesn't come with much in terms of flaws. Is he a little undersized? Sure, but he meets the 5'10" threshold (5107), with elite athleticism, 31 1/4" arms, fluid hips and willingness to step up against the run and play special teams as well. Add-in he is a stand-up guy off the field and well-spoken, I have a hard-time believing he isn't going to have an awesome career. The Champ Bailey comparison was more-so in terms of body type and athleticism. I think they are a bit different on the field (Champ would let opposing receivers get slightly open to bait QB's to throw it whereas Ward just sticks his man and doesn't allow separation). I know Chris Harris' comps get thrown around a lot for Ward and I just didn't think that did justice in terms of his athleticism. I haven't understand hate on Vea so much. Okay, the "stats" aren't great. But all you have to do is turn on Washington tape to see a nearly 350 lbs. man eating double teams, creating pressure when he isn't doubled, and running sideline-to-sideline to get involved on plays. The raw ability is insane with him. It is hard for me to see Vea not carving out a career that at least resembles Dontari's Poe. I think Josh Sweat doesn't get the love he deserves because of the previous knee injuries. They are a bit scary, but his medicals have been cleared and he was an absolute force last year. It would be nice if he was used more in a role like Robert Quinn was in at UNC, lining up in a Wide 9 technique and just being unleashed. But, that's not what the Seminoles decided to do and he still managed 12.5 TFL. Sweat even topped Quinn in every athletic testing category. Sweat is an absolute freak who should be a better pro than college pro. The other thing people don't seem to mention on him; 34 5/8" arms that top every EDGE player I have a draftable grade on except for Duke Ejiofor. Fred Warner will at least be an awesome coverage linebacker. BYU gave him a lot of responsibility and he possesses the range and fluidness of a safety. Not easy to find in a 236 lbs. man. Eric Kendricks is known largely due to his great coverage ability and I truly think Warner profiles similarly on the field and testing-wise. I talked in-depth on Rosen before. To sum up, he falls into a grouping that has 14 previous QB's to go in the first four rounds with a sub 37% conversion rate on 3rd downs in their final collegiate year. Derek Carr is the only starter of that group. He has the second-worst QB rating in the red zone in his final year in college of QB's to be drafted in the first two rounds (if you got rid of Tim Tebow, Rosen would be last). The only other names with a sub 160 QB rating in the RZ on last year are Josh Freeman, Jimmy Clausen, Brock Osweiler, Christian Hackenberg, and Blaine Gabbert. And it was not strictly the final year; as a sophomore Rosen completed just six of 22 passes (27.3%) in the red zone. A lot is made of how pro-ready Rosen is due to the silky smooth mechanics and the off-field "concerns" seem to overshadow the simple fact that he has an average arm for the NFL game. He reminds me so much of Clausen. A previously uberly-hyped recruit who were never able to win at their schools, generally looks clean mechanically on the field, but struggles to throw deep, mightily struggles against pressure and when forced to throw from a different launch point, and ultimately have average arms for the next level. There is a reason the NFL is willing to take chances on a DeShone Kizer or Joe Flacco or Josh Allen; having a cannon arm provides more potential. The Eli Manning and Matt Ryan comparisons are too much for my taste with Rosen. They both, clearly, had NFL arms. Ryan played too much hero ball at BC but the arm talent was there. Eli had/has plenty of arm too. When you 'play it safe' with your QB's, overlooking an average arm and statistical concerns (which point to a lack of arm talent as well), that's how you end up with guys like Christian Ponder, Clausen, Brian Brohm. For the sack of NFL franchises, only Ponder went 1st round. But Brohm and Clausen were hyped as 1st rounders and potential franchise guys by nearly everybody. Why? Clean mechanics, big names, and saying the arm was "good enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, Da_Ducktator said: Appreciate the notes and get where you're coming from on separating the top 1st round tiers as well. Denzel is an elite athlete at the position and honestly, the guy doesn't come with much in terms of flaws. Is he a little undersized? Sure, but he meets the 5'10" threshold (5107), with elite athleticism, 31 1/4" arms, fluid hips and willingness to step up against the run and play special teams as well. Add-in he is a stand-up guy off the field and well-spoken, I have a hard-time believing he isn't going to have an awesome career. The Champ Bailey comparison was more-so in terms of body type and athleticism. I think they are a bit different on the field (Champ would let opposing receivers get slightly open to bait QB's to throw it whereas Ward just sticks his man and doesn't allow separation). I know Chris Harris' comps get thrown around a lot for Ward and I just didn't think that did justice in terms of his athleticism. I haven't understand hate on Vea so much. Okay, the "stats" aren't great. But all you have to do is turn on Washington tape to see a nearly 350 lbs. man eating double teams, creating pressure when he isn't doubled, and running sideline-to-sideline to get involved on plays. The raw ability is insane with him. It is hard for me to see Vea not carving out a career that at least resembles Dontari's Poe. I think Josh Sweat doesn't get the love he deserves because of the previous knee injuries. They are a bit scary, but his medicals have been cleared and he was an absolute force last year. It would be nice if he was used more in a role like Robert Quinn was in at UNC, lining up in a Wide 9 technique and just being unleashed. But, that's not what the Seminoles decided to do and he still managed 12.5 TFL. Sweat even topped Quinn in every athletic testing category. Sweat is an absolute freak who should be a better pro than college pro. The other thing people don't seem to mention on him; 34 5/8" arms that top every EDGE player I have a draftable grade on except for Duke Ejiofor. Fred Warner will at least be an awesome coverage linebacker. BYU gave him a lot of responsibility and he possesses the range and fluidness of a safety. Not easy to find in a 236 lbs. man. Eric Kendricks is known largely due to his great coverage ability and I truly think Warner profiles similarly on the field and testing-wise. I talked in-depth on Rosen before. To sum up, he falls into a grouping that has 14 previous QB's to go in the first four rounds with a sub 37% conversion rate on 3rd downs in their final collegiate year. Derek Carr is the only starter of that group. He has the second-worst QB rating in the red zone in his final year in college of QB's to be drafted in the first two rounds (if you got rid of Tim Tebow, Rosen would be last). The only other names with a sub 160 QB rating in the RZ on last year are Josh Freeman, Jimmy Clausen, Brock Osweiler, Christian Hackenberg, and Blaine Gabbert. And it was not strictly the final year; as a sophomore Rosen completed just six of 22 passes (27.3%) in the red zone. A lot is made of how pro-ready Rosen is due to the silky smooth mechanics and the off-field "concerns" seem to overshadow the simple fact that he has an average arm for the NFL game. He reminds me so much of Clausen. A previously uberly-hyped recruit who were never able to win at their schools, generally looks clean mechanically on the field, but struggles to throw deep, mightily struggles against pressure and when forced to throw from a different launch point, and ultimately have average arms for the next level. There is a reason the NFL is willing to take chances on a DeShone Kizer or Joe Flacco or Josh Allen; having a cannon arm provides more potential. The Eli Manning and Matt Ryan comparisons are too much for my taste with Rosen. They both, clearly, had NFL arms. Ryan played too much hero ball at BC but the arm talent was there. Eli had/has plenty of arm too. When you 'play it safe' with your QB's, overlooking an average arm and statistical concerns (which point to a lack of arm talent as well), that's how you end up with guys like Christian Ponder, Clausen, Brian Brohm. For the sack of NFL franchises, only Ponder went 1st round. But Brohm and Clausen were hyped as 1st rounders and potential franchise guys by nearly everybody. Why? Clean mechanics, big names, and saying the arm was "good enough." You've covered Rosen in-depth, and I respect that. Just think a 2nd round grade is way too harsh, that's all. His strengths are the most pro-ready, I get if you worry his arm isn't enough to get there, I see the anticipation / timing / read progression as being so good it won't be an issue (and didn't see his arm as a major flag, although not a cannon like Allen's, few are lol). I respect the take, though, just I think the strengths are more than where your assessment is at. Orlovsky's recent take is a good example of this: Either way, though, all good. Props for the board, it's tough work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da_Ducktator Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, Broncofan said: You've covered Rosen in-depth, and I respect that. Just think a 2nd round grade is way too harsh, that's all. His strengths are the most pro-ready, I get if you worry his arm isn't enough to get there, I see the anticipation / timing as being so good it won't be an issue (and didn't see his arm as a major flag, although not a cannon like Allen's, few are lol). To each their own. Plenty like Rosen, so we'll see how it pans out. I just view Rosen as a good back-up who could make spot starts in the right system. I think with the flaws he shows on tape, he would have to be in an awesome situation to have sustained success in the NFL. Think Matt Cassel the year he was good in New England. And honestly, they are kind of reminiscent of each other too in terms of skill-set. Clean mechanically that covers up an average arm (that's the other thing about clean mechanics, it can make an average arm look better than it is, that's why I've noted multiple times and pulled up clips of when Rosen has to throw on the move and when his body is not in sync, a la when it comes down strictly to arm talent, and how he struggles mightily in those areas) and falters when dealing with pressure and having to move from the launch point. Sure, Cassel was solid for one season in New England playing with an amazing squad and solid for one year in Kansas City had a really good surrounding cast (Jamaal Charles, good Dwayne Bowe, really solid O-Line anchored by Brian Waters, and a solid defense). But nothing of Cassel was sustainable because ultimately he had the average arm and was bad when forced to throw on the move (again, a glaring problem on Rosen's tape). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom cody Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 Thanks for sharing this. Will be interesting to see tonight how the rankings all go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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