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Is Larry Fitzgerald Still A Top 12 WR Talent Wise?

Is Larry Fitzgerald Still A Top 12 WR Talent Wise?  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Larry Fitzgerald Still A Top 12 WR Talent Wise?



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2 hours ago, ET80 said:

You have yet to substantiate this with anything other than "I know a guy." I hope you understand the leap of faith required to take this at absolute face value on an Internet message board. 

I know a scout too - he says Fitzgerald is quick out of his breaks. So, we're at an impasse. 

Why bring it up then? He's obviously trying to paint a picture for others - and he does, very vividly at that. He then goes into the timing of a play within the constructs of coverage, explaining the innate knowledge needed to pull that off, which shows a display of awareness mid route (which I'd argue is a more important trait to have in a pre-snap adjustment/timing route NFL that we see, but that's another argument entirely). 

 

Going back to brevity. He's painting a specific picture, not the Sistine chapel.

Consider the familiarity of the two. Over the past six years, these two gave played 12 times (11, given Sherman was hurt last season).

Sure if he's talking about Landry or Jackson he might not be a SME - but this is a familiar for for Sherman. His word carries a significant amount of weight.

...you and your unnamed sources don't have it either. Citing baseline stats you can pull up from Google isn't the Rosetta Stone you're making it out to be, especially when you're talking about instances in the 10s (think I went over this before).

Cool story about your friend, BTW. Really happy for him, cancer sucks.

You can't be asked to prove a negative. That's fallacious. Prove there isn't a unicorn living in Antartica right now.

Sherman obviously thinks Fitzgerald's timing is part of what makes him a good receiver. He sacrifices technically good route running to make the play work (ad-libbing). But that's a separate category from route running. And it's a separate category from being quick in change of direction, which is the claim that was made in this thread that led us down this path. 

"...you and your unnamed sources don't have it either. Citing baseline stats you can pull up from Google isn't the Rosetta Stone you're making it out to be, especially when you're talking about instances in the 10s (think I went over this before)."

Didn't I already explain how utterly absurd it is to pretend 36-8 isn't an enormous difference in the 40+ yard touchdown department? Like it would just be some fluke where the guy who got 36 got lucky 28 more times in 132 games than the guy who got 8 in 218 games? 

Did a FS who had 36 INTs in 132 games just get lucky 28 more times than a FS who had only 8 in 218 games, so you can't say that the guy who got 36 was the better ball hawk? One of those is Tyrone Braxton if you condense his career INTs into a career where he didn't play his last 3 seasons. Or Reggie Nelson, if you condensed his career INTs into everything but the last 2 seasons and 5 games.

The other would be a safety we've never even seen before. He would be laughed at and referred to as a "linebacker pretending to be a safety" and the like. 

But I guess to you, interceptions don't prove who the better ball hawk is, then, because there aren't enough of them?

How about if a DT recorded just 8 sacks in 218 starts? Maybe the DT who recorded 36 in 132 games just got 28 coverage sacks/was left totally unblocked on all of them, so you can't say that he's a better pass rusher. 

Total nonsense. As I said before, you could say this about every statistic there is, because football isn't a sport where the statistics describe the play itself. But in cases where they're so overwhelmingly in someone's favor, they're a certainty. 

The point of statistics isn't to say what happened on every single play of a certain kind. It's the broad point that is important. 

I never said the statistic was precise. If it were like 10 to 8 in the same number of games, that's close. 36-8 is not even remotely close. As shown, the highest number of 40+ yard touchdown receptions was Jerry Rice with 54. The figures for each receiver demonstrate the context for what a large difference is. 36-8 is a landslide. 

And even the names alone at the top and bottom demonstrate that the statistic accurately reflects what I say it does. 

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2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Oh give me a break. That’s horse crap that I don’t think you even believe. 

So he just carelessly pulled out generic WR descriptions so the media would leave him alone? Do you read what you post before you post it? That’s lunacy.

As for the tipping off his gameplan, that’s simply not how the NFL works. The truth is the jury isn’t out on how to defend against Green, or similar receivers. The Bengals know his weaknesses just like every team and defensive coordinator around the league. It’s no secret how to defend Green, or any receiver by that matter. To act like Belichek somehow knows the secret to defending him and doesn’t want to tip his hand doesn’t make any sense. Teams know what puts their opponents in a disadvantage and implement it, yet the player succeeds anyway.  It’s what makes all-pro players all-pros. It’s why guys like Green still consistently beat double-coverage on Sundays.

And I’ll admit, putting your hands on Green is a good way to slow him down. To act like Belichek is secretly the only one who knows this uber-basic concept is plain stupid.

You honestly think Belichick cares about giving the media an accurate scouting report on a player he's going against?

His goal is to not give them anything. He views sports media as a liability. He's only there so he won't get fined. 

He doesn't want media-created distractions. He doesn't want people saying, "Belichick said you struggle against press coverage." He doesn't want opposing coaches hearing about it and thinking, "oh, he's going to press him? Well, we'll just send him in motion, then."

 

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7 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

You honestly think Belichick cares about giving the media an accurate scouting report on a player he's going against?

His goal is to not give them anything. He views sports media as a liability. He's only there so he won't get fined. 

He doesn't want media-created distractions. He doesn't want people saying, "Belichick said you struggle against press coverage." He doesn't want opposing coaches hearing about it and thinking, "oh, he's going to press him? Well, we'll just send him in motion, then."

 

Did you even read what I wrote?

It’s like talking to a wall.

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3 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

No. This is what you said: "Shirley you cant be serious?  The age old adage in the nfl is everyone is fast.  Everyone is a great athlete what separates players in the nfl is technique.  There is a reason that "unathletic" guys like Tom Waddle were able to consistently get open."

According to you, everyone is a great athlete but what separates players in the NFL is technique. That means that what separates Randy Moss from Tom Waddle is technique, not athleticism, since everyone is a great athlete, and what separates them is technique. 

Again, who said anything about peewee until you did? I mentioned college and the NFL. The guys who play wide receiver nearly always played it in college, and received quite a bit of coaching there. Once they got to the NFL, they received tons of professional coaching. Learning technique is not about talent, it's about work. NFL players either put in the work or they're gone.

 

If thats what you took from that statement, then my god im sorry for you.

The reason btw i brought up peewee to college is the offenses they run and the fact these guys who come into the nfl, many of them dont know the route tree bc of the simplified spread offenses dominating every level of football save for the nfl these days.

Its pretty clear that you are either a troll, or completely clueless about football.  Me, yep im an amateur.  An amateur who has been coming to this board for over a decade now to talk football on a regular basis.  Ive had debates with a respected nfl insider before he became one.  Ive had conversations with the guys who took bleacher report from a joke of a clickbait site to a legitimate source for news and analysis.  Im not going to say its impossible that you know a scout.  But bc that is your sole defense im inclined to believe it likely isnt.  

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18 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

If thats what you took from that statement, then my god im sorry for you.

The reason btw i brought up peewee to college is the offenses they run and the fact these guys who come into the nfl, many of them dont know the route tree bc of the simplified spread offenses dominating every level of football save for the nfl these days.

Its pretty clear that you are either a troll, or completely clueless about football.  Me, yep im an amateur.  An amateur who has been coming to this board for over a decade now to talk football on a regular basis.  Ive had debates with a respected nfl insider before he became one.  Ive had conversations with the guys who took bleacher report from a joke of a clickbait site to a legitimate source for news and analysis.  Im not going to say its impossible that you know a scout.  But bc that is your sole defense im inclined to believe it likely isnt.  

That's literally what your statement means. If that's not what you meant, you should have written something different.

Spread offenses also dominate the NFL these days, in case you missed it. 

"An amateur who has been coming to this board for over a decade now to talk football on a regular basis."

Are you....serious? Please tell me you're joking. You think posting on football forums means you're not an amateur?

 

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20 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Did you even read what I wrote?

It’s like talking to a wall.

Did you read what I wrote?

You're putting stock in what Belichick says to the media, as if he cares about the accuracy of what he says to people he has no respect for. All he cares about is that he doesn't give them anything to work with. 

Your argument that everybody already knows how teams are going to try to defend a player, so coaches wouldn't care about tipping off their strategy...utter nonsense. Coaches try different game plans all the time. Coaches are surprised by what other coaches do as strategy all the time. 

 

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52 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Did you read what I wrote?

You're putting stock in what Belichick says to the media, as if he cares about the accuracy of what he says to people he has no respect for. All he cares about is that he doesn't give them anything to work with. 

Your argument that everybody already knows how teams are going to try to defend a player, so coaches wouldn't care about tipping off their strategy...utter nonsense. Coaches try different game plans all the time. Coaches are surprised by what other coaches do as strategy all the time. 

 

Aaaaaaaand I'm done.

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2 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

That's literally what your statement means. If that's not what you meant, you should have written something different.

Spread offenses also dominate the NFL these days, in case you missed it. 

"An amateur who has been coming to this board for over a decade now to talk football on a regular basis."

Are you....serious? Please tell me you're joking. You think posting on football forums means you're not an amateur?

 

No im freely admitting im an amateur but im also a very knoweldgable amateur who has played and coached the game.  Im also an invested amateur as are the vast majority of posters on this board.  See what you fail to understand is that the members of ff arent your run of the mill football fans.  We are the hardcore fans who study the game.  I know what im looking at when i watch a route, as do many of us.  I am questioning whether or not you do.  

And no, spread offenses arent dominating the nfl the way they do in college in terms of proliferation.  More teams are incoorperating those concepts, but you cant say 95% of nfl offenses look like college spread offenses and the spread offenses in the pros include a full route tree again, unlike their amateur counterparts.

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2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Aaaaaaaand I'm done.

You shouldn't have even started if you're going to use something Bill Belichick said to the media before a game as evidence to support something.

 

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15 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

No im freely admitting im an amateur but im also a very knoweldgable amateur who has played and coached the game.  Im also an invested amateur as are the vast majority of posters on this board.  See what you fail to understand is that the members of ff arent your run of the mill football fans.  We are the hardcore fans who study the game.  I know what im looking at when i watch a route, as do many of us.  I am questioning whether or not you do.  

And no, spread offenses arent dominating the nfl the way they do in college in terms of proliferation.  More teams are incoorperating those concepts, but you cant say 95% of nfl offenses look like college spread offenses and the spread offenses in the pros include a full route tree again, unlike their amateur counterparts.

Most NFL offenses these days resemble college offenses. It has never been easier to get open in the NFL.

Fitzgerald has benefitted from this since Todd Haley took over as the Cardinals' offensive coordinator. 

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On 7/15/2018 at 9:42 AM, NFLExpert49 said:

Throwing motion isn't something you really want to tinker with. It's a roll of the dice when you do that. A QB who naturally throws one way, and has been doing it since childhood, could be ruined if you do that.

Pass rushers use the moves that they are physically able to have success with. If they don't have the athletic traits to pull off certain moves, coaches aren't going to want them using them. Stick to what you're good at is the philosophy there.

Bad tackling is either about a lack of effort of a lack of courage. You can't teach those. The bad tacklers who last in the league are the ones coaches only put up with because they can cover. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Bobikus said:

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Nope. We were discussing route running technique, which is completely different from those, which I explained.

 

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He's in my top 10 for fantasy. Number 10 exactly I think. Wish the Cards would trade him to the Chargers or some team with a good QB not named the Patriots.

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