MVP Race

[Mid Iowa]

5 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

So hypocrisy and straw men. Are there anymore points you’d like to make?

Yeah, I'll point out your hypocrisy.

You said in another thread, regarding JuJu Smith S., this --> "He’s some-consistency away from being in the discussion as a top 10 guy, IMO. He’s already close. JJSS does everything you want from your wideout, he just needs to do it at a consistent rate to get that praise."

So Mahomes lost in 2 games where he wasn't consistent (that's 20% of his games) and was responsible for 7 turnovers. Yet, you're praising him over a QB who has been the model of consistency.

So, are we being position specific now, or just hypocritical?

[Soko]

4 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

But when you turn the ball over at a high rate, and give the opposing team 14 free points.

how can you blame the defense? Technically speaking the Rams offense only scored 39.

Because the Rams “only scored” 40...is that a good figure, or something? That’s a roasting. Mahomes was the reason they were in the game, not the KC defense. 40 is actually the highest output they’ve had all season.

Like I said, Mahomes didn’t play a perfect game. But yeah, I pretty easily put the blame largely on the defense. 

[Chiefer]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

How can you blame the defense for allowing 40 points? We have vastly different standards for acceptable defensive performance. Further, if those drives had resulted in TOs instead of punts, as @Yin-Yang pointed out, the statistics from the game indicate that the Rams would have still scored 54 points.

This game was a shootout, and defense has been terrible this year. Chiefs only gave up 39 to the Rams and I call that a win. It's a new age and of you can hold the opposing team to less points than you scored you should win a lot of those games.

Or the Chiefs score touch downs and score over 60, or they punt and the Chiefs defense holds the Rams to a punt, or they go down to score field goals and send the game to OT. We can do hypotheticals all day.

[Mid Iowa]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Just as I thought, you don't have a legitimate response. Just go back to "giving" us the win. It's better for all parties.

Nor do you have a legit response. You're a homer, and you're talking about what if, rather than what actually happened.

It's okay to still be pissed that you got beat by a lesser QB than Mahomes, I get it. 

Man, imagine if I threw out how the Saints would have laid a 50 burger on the Rams if Brees would have made the 2 passes he over threw. The game "could have" <-- that's a jrry32(ism) been more like 52 or even 59 to 28 or so.

Weird when someone else pulls out a "what if" or "could have", huh?

[Chiefer]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

Because the Rams “only scored” 40...is that a good figure, or something? That’s a roasting. Mahomes was the reason they were in the game, not the KC defense. 40 is actually the highest output they’ve had all season.

Like I said, Mahomes didn’t play a perfect game. But yeah, I pretty easily put the blame largely on the defense. 

Yeah the Rams have a historically good offense. I'm happy if my team with a terrible defense can hold them to less than 40.

Pathetic I know, but The defensive performance shouldve been good enough to win The day. You can't give the other team so many opportunities, or points on the board in a game like that. Defense held the best they could given the environment and the amount of turnovers.

 

[Soko]

11 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Yeah, I'll point out your hypocrisy.

You said in another thread, regarding JuJu Smith S., this --> "He’s some-consistency away from being in the discussion as a top 10 guy, IMO. He’s already close. JJSS does everything you want from your wideout, he just needs to do it at a consistent rate to get that praise."

So Mahomes lost in 2 games where he wasn't consistent (that's 20% of his games) and was responsible for 7 turnovers. Yet, you're praising him over a QB who has been the model of consistency.

So, are we being position specific now, or just hypocritical?

I want to apologize to you. I’ve been saying your posts have been hypocritical this whole time, but I don’t think you know what it means. 

See when you laud Brees for TDs/yards/completion percentage in a loss, but don’t do so for Mahomes (then go on to say he’s the reason they lost) - that’s hypocorsy. 

When you want to give context to Brees’ shortcomings, but not Mahomes’ - that’s hypocrisy. 

Me saying JJSS needs to be more consistent in order to be a top 10 receiver and then later saying that I’d take Mahomes over Brees in a toss up for MVP, isn’t hypocrisy unless the MVP award only accounts for whomever is most consistent.

Personal rankings =/= NFL awards, bud. I didn’t think Matt Ryan was #1 in the league when he won MVP, even though he deserved to win it. Same with Cam. 

Keep up the quality posts.

[Mid Iowa]

Regardless of the Brees vs Mahomes part, I'll say, Mahomes is amazing for a 2nd year guy. The entire AFC is going to draft around how to stop this guy, and undoubtedly, he's going to win some Super Bowls (yes, plural) in his career. This isn't even a case of "defenses don't know how to defend against him because of lack of film" type thing, the kid is just phenomenal.

I think the Chiefs have a great offense, and if they focus on building a top 15-18 defense, look out NFL.

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

This game was a shootout, and defense has been terrible this year. Chiefs only gave up 39 to the Rams and I call that a win. It's a new age and of you can hold the opposing team to less points than you scored you should win a lot of those games.

Or the Chiefs score touch downs and score over 60, or they punt and the Chiefs defense holds the Rams to a punt, or they go down to score field goals and send the game to OT. We can do hypotheticals all day.

1. The Chiefs as a team gave up 54. The Chiefs defense gave up 40.

2. We can do hypotheticals all day. The simple fact is that Mahomes kept your garbage defense in the game. Aaron Donald made Aaron Donald plays. And then we got a couple of lucky bounces to go our way.

It's weird that I have to defend Mahomes to a Chiefs fan.

1 minute ago, Mid Iowa said:

Nor do you have a legit response. You're a homer, and you're talking about what if, rather than what actually happened.

It's okay to still be pissed that you got beat by a lesser QB than Mahomes, I get it. 

Man, imagine if I threw out how the Saints would have laid a 50 burger on the Rams if Brees would have made the 2 passes he over threw. The game "could have" <-- that's a jrry32(ism) been more like 52 or even 59 to 28 or so.

Weird when someone else pulls out a "what if" or "could have", huh?

What actually happened is Mahomes played the Rams in LA and Brees played the Rams in NO. Feel free to pull out the "what ifs" and "could haves." The Chiefs didn't benefit from having a crew that shafts the Rams. The Chiefs didn't benefit from a game-changing call going their way. And the Chiefs didn't benefit from a homefield advantage. Just be happy the Saints escaped with a win. And stop trying to short Mahomes because you're desperate to exalt Brees.

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Yeah the Rams have a historically good offense. I'm happy if my team with a terrible defense can hold them to less than 40.

Pathetic I know, but The defensive performance shouldve been good enough to win The day. You can't give the other team so many opportunities, or points on the board in a game like that. Defense held the best they could given the environment and the amount of turnovers.

The Rams offense hasn’t scored 40 this season. The Chiefs D let that up. And even if you say those turnovers don’t happen, the Chiefs were giving up touchdowns on nearly 40% of the drives in that game. 

The fact that you have low expectations of the defense does not absolve them of blame. Just because the 2017 winless Browns were terrible and we expected them to be, doesn’t mean it isn’t their fault they didn’t win more games.

[Mid Iowa]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

I want to apologize to you. I’ve been saying your posts have been hypocritical this whole time, but I don’t think you know what it means. 

See when you laud Brees for TDs/yards/completion percentage in a loss, but don’t do so for Mahomes (then go on to say he’s the reason they lost) - that’s hypocorsy. 

When you want to give context to Brees’ shortcomings, but not Mahomes’ - that’s hypocrisy. 

Me saying JJSS needs to be more consistent in order to be a top 10 receiver and then later saying that I’d take Mahomes over Brees in a toss up, isn’t hypocrisy unless the MVP award only accounts for whomever is most consistent.

Personal rankings =/= NFL awards, bud. I didn’t think Matt Ryan was #1 in the league when he won MVP, even though he deserved to win it. Same with Cam. 

Keep up the quality posts.

Sorry I didn't post ALL of Mahomes stats, to make it even/fair, whichever you prefer. I'll stick with 1 important stat. Turnovers. He can have a participation trophy, though.

By the way, hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. So.... I guess you don't know what you're talking about. Try again.

[game3525]

Quote

In games like LA-KC, punts lead to points too. Look at the TB-NO game. They punted three times (and had two TOs). TB scored TDs on the drive following two of the three punts. When your defense can't get stops, punting is a death sentence.

This is a bit of a stretch IMO.

Punting in a shootout is bad and Brees didn't play his best game against Tampa. You can make the case that he was indirectly responsible since the offense was forced to punt. But Mahomes was directly responsible for giving away points. We are splitting hairs here since both guys played pretty well in their respective loses. But this is the sort thing we have to look at in such a close MVP race. 

[Mid Iowa]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

What actually happened is Mahomes played the Rams in LA and Brees played the Rams in NO. Feel free to pull out the "what ifs" and "could haves." The Chiefs didn't benefit from having a crew that shafts the Rams. The Chiefs didn't benefit from a game-changing call going their way. And the Chiefs didn't benefit from a homefield advantage. Just be happy the Saints escaped with a win. And stop trying to short Mahomes because you're desperate to exalt Brees.

Well the Rams won all of their other road games.

I can't help anything about the refs. Maybe your team should have figured out how to score more. I know the refs play good offense, huh? Did any penalties put the ball in the endzone, or even close? Continue a dead drive? Nope!!

I'll stop shorting Mahomes when he stops turning the ball over in losses!!!!!!

You guys make more excuses than my kids.

[Mid Iowa]

I'm signing out for now. Time to leave the office, I've got a football game to watch.

[Soko]

5 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Sorry I didn't post ALL of Mahomes stats, to make it even/fair, whichever you prefer. I'll stick with 1 important stat. Turnovers. He can have a participation trophy, though.

We would all appreciate it.

The last 5 pages or so, I haven’t really gotten into Brees vs Mahomes for MVP with you (attempted to, anyway). Just the way that you frame Brees and then the way that you frame Mahomes were not consistent.

I already said my piece earlier in the thread - the voting is going to come down to great bulk with elite efficiency vs great efficiency with elite bulk. Though I think KC’s loss, Brees’ legacy, and Mahomes’ youth will all play factors (won’t oretend to quantify them from the voter’s POV).

5 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

By the way, hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. So.... I guess you don't know what you're talking about. Try again.

Framing a guy one way using one brush and discrediting his opponent with a different brush is hypocritical. That’s all. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

6 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

Let's clear a few things up....You think 3ppg is not close. I do think that is still close. The difference is essentially a FG, which is special teams related; not the offense itself. Those 3 offenses are interchangeable in my eyes.

It's an average value; if the average is that relatively different, then it represents a relatively larger difference across the season. An average of 3 PPG across a season is a big difference. Tha'ts around 50 points in a season, and 50 points is what consistently separates a great offense of any given season to a historically, all-time great, and in most cases separates the best from just a pretty good offense/great offense. 

 

6 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

YOU think his most impressive stat is the completion %. I do not.

Also, not only is it more 3 PPG, but they get have received fewer possessions than either of the other teams and STILL has scored ~30 more points thus far in the season. 

Ok, I'm sorry, because it averages out to a 3 point difference the Saints' advantage must be related to special teams and FGs? What??  

Not only does the offense need to put them in position for a field goal in the first place, but just because it averages out to 3 PPG doesn't mean that this is necessarily a result of field goals. It is simply an average across the season that happens to be 3 points. 

6 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

The completion record and many other passing records are going to be broken in the next few years due to the new rules of hitting QB's becoming equivalent to two hand touch. QB's do not have to worry about getting rocked anymore and can stand in the pocket worry free while they make throws. I think 5-7 QB's are on pace to break 5000yards passing this season. That was previously only done 5x in NFL history. Passing league=more passing records being broken. His lack of INT's while throwing the ball so much is most impressive to ME.

You realize this applies to everything right? INT% is not exempt from this, the rules making it easier to pass in the modern NFL also makes it relatively easier to not throw INTs. The fact that his INT numbers are low are not independent from the pass-friendly league rules. 

 

6 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

YOU think his most impressive stat is the completion %. I do not.

I didn't necessarily say that, I'm just saying that his INT% isn't considerably more impressive than the other efficiency numbers, because all of them are fantastic including the one that is inevitably going to break the record this year. You make it sound like his INT% is the only efficiency stat that is exceptional, and that it stands out from his other efficiency stats, when that is simply untrue. 

 

6 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

Brees is not even the best QB

Yes he is. He's leading by far the most productive offense and putting up the most efficient numbers easily. 

 

6 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

let alone the BEST PLAYER. There's a bias that QB's have to be MVP's

I mean, this is just semantics. Would you rather I said, "the best player for this award"? QB's are the most valuable position, so naturally, the QB usually wins the MVP, as it should be. I didn't mean best player in a literal sense, although you could definitely make that argument that Brees is the best player in the game right now.