Lebron's legacy !!! ??? !!!

[dtait93]

22 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

Jordan is 1, Lebron is in the debate for #2. 

He has obviously had an amazing career, but he has some things going against him. He's left twice to go ring chasing, maybe 3 times, but this 3rd time hasn't worked out very well for him yet. Hes benefited from a weak conference over the last decade. A conference so weak, they dissolved the normal way of playing the all star game. That shows why he is 3-6 in the Finals. 9 finals is impressive, but when talking "GOAT Status" nitpicking is acceptable. 

The big thing that stands out to me about Jordan over Lebron is that Jordan dominated the league for a decade unlike anything else. 6 rings in 8 years, probably would have been 8 in 8 if he didn't take 1 3/4 seasons off. He won 5 MVPs during that time and was straight robbed of another. I know people say Rose robbed Lebron, but Rose was the best player on a team with a better record, so there is at least an argument there. Karl Malone won an MVP over MJ when Jordan won 69 games, lead the league in scoring and was 1st team All D. 

Speaking of Jordan, not many guys are 10x scoring champs and 1st team all defense in 9 of those seasons....plus a DPOY award. Jordan was winning finals against prime Stockton/Malone, Peyton/Kemp, Prime Barkley, Prime Drexler....Lebron was beating the baby trio of the Thunder and the old men Spurs. Ill give him his credit for those, and really the 3-1 comeback against the warriors was the most epic moment of his career. But benefitting from  a weak eastern conference and then losing 4-0 twice, 4-1 twice really sting. Once again this is nit picking but we are talking GOAT. we arent comparing Lebron to Dirk or Paul Pierce, though Dirk did beat him and Paul Pierce helped send him to Miami to form a super team . 

For as epic as that comeback was, his 2011 meltdown was just as epic in a bad way.

[BStanRamFan]

12 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Yes they are. It's not like Lebron has 2 1/2 rings for beating OKC when Durant, Westbrook, and Harden were all 22-23, and it's also not like he has 3 1/2 rings for beating a 73 win team.

I would love to compare the teams Jordan beat to the teams Lebron beat. Those teams Jordan faced were a lot better than bafoons such as Colin Cowherd would lead you to believe. But how can 4 rings and 4 Finals MVP's elevate Lebron past Jordan who has 6 rings and 6 MVP's after you account for all 6 of Lebron's Finals losses that included that meltdown against Dallas? That was genuinely horrible.

In any matter, his legacy is going to take a huge ding this year. If he misses the playoffs then everyone who said he's only been to 8 consecutive Finals because he plays in the "Leastern Conference" will be validated. If he makes the playoffs it will likely be the 8th and he will lose to the Warriors and not only will his Leastern Conference critics be validated but his, "unbeatable in the first round" argument will also go flying out the window.

 

The teams Jordan beat in the Finals combined for 7 HOF( Magic, Worthy, Clyde, Gary Payton, Barkley, Stockton, Malone). Also, no team had more than 2 HoF at a time. (Worthy was hurt in the Finals vs Bulls). And Jordan played against teams that had Danny Ainge starting twice (Suns and Blazers). LeBron never played a single "Dan" in the Finals lol the competition between the two eras is non-comparable. You can say "tougher" and I'd agree, but talent level was not even close.

The teams LeBron beat will have 9 HoF( KD, Harden, Russ, Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Steph, Klay, Draymon) and also had multiple HoF's at one time. Beating two Dynasties (Spurs and Warriors)

In a manner of legacy, Jordan QUIT twice and couldn't win anything without a top 30 player of all time and arguably the greatest coach of all time.

This will go back and forth for hours so this will be my last post on the topic. My original point and what I stand by is, if LeBron wins 4 rings/4 Finals MVP's it will be on 3 different teams as "the man", which no one has done. He did it in the era of "super teams". He will blow Jordan away in all time rebounds, points, and assists. He will likely finish top 2 in scoring all time and is already top 10 in assists. If he does do all of that, he will be 1 in my eyes and should atleast move to 1B for the most die hard Jordan fans as well. He is #2 right now.

[Mossburg]

So do Mike Brown and Erik Spolstra deserve a lot more credit now that we look back? The narrative was always how LeBron one man teamed stupid coaches. True, neither of those guys han any competent offensive schemes and LeBron was basically shouldering perhaps an unprecedented offensive load. But now that we're in a 3rd year of LeBron's teams being complete defensive laughing stocks, and the fact that LeBron having the most success in his career on elite defensive teams, can we retroactively say that LeBron deserved less credit for those teams and the coaches (or in Blatt's situation, I dunno who was responsible for that team's D) deserve a lot more?

[Mossburg]

As far as the Jordan vs LeBron thing, it's basically based on eye test and maybe a few other things. I hate it when people pretend like it's anything close to an apple to apples comparison. Both of these guys did unprecedented things through completely different ways while being completely different players playing in completely different eras (with both players being a part of multiple eras themselves).

The one thing I'll say in LeBron's favor from my perspective is there is an argument that you can make that he's the best ever, even if not a convincing one. Other than Shaq who is a completely different best for better and worse, there's nobody else who I've seen play who I can say that for.

[Pastor Dillon]

3 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

Yeah, not sure how that works out. It would be 4 Finals MVPs, though.

LeBron has more stats in the regular season and playoffs (except steals), more All-NBA teams, better TS%, better BPM, etc. Both arguments can go on and on this way. More titles and Finals MVPs is definitely a big tiebreaker in the argument on paper, though. LeBron in 2011 was embarrassing to watch.

One of the reason Lebron has more stats is because Jordan went to college....where he won a championship and MVP. 

[BStanRamFan]

8 minutes ago, Mossburg said:

So do Mike Brown and Erik Spolstra deserve a lot more credit now that we look back? The narrative was always how LeBron one man teamed stupid coaches. True, neither of those guys han any competent offensive schemes and LeBron was basically shouldering perhaps an unprecedented offensive load. But now that we're in a 3rd year of LeBron's teams being complete defensive laughing stocks, and the fact that LeBron having the most success in his career on elite defensive teams, can we retroactively say that LeBron deserved less credit for those teams and the coaches (or in Blatt's situation, I dunno who was responsible for that team's D) deserve a lot more?

As LeBron has aged, he has taken off on the defensive side of the ball and this season stopped playing defense entirely. Spoelstra is a top coach in the league still and should get a ton of credit for how good he is. It's not a coincidence that the teams declined defensively as he has increased in age.

[BStanRamFan]

3 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

One of the reason Lebron has more stats is because Jordan went to college....where he won a championship and MVP. 

Not the 1.5 seasons he took off to play baseball? lol just the college season. Or that LeBron has more years in the playoffs making deeper runs. Got it.

[Mossburg]

4 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

As LeBron has aged, he has taken off on the defensive side of the ball and this season stopped playing defense entirely. Spoelstra is a top coach in the league still and should get a ton of credit for how good he is. It's not a coincidence that the teams declined defensively as he has increased in age.

I suppose the point I am trying to make more is that coaches are in large part responsible for holding player accountable on the defensive end. There's no excuse for stopping playing defense entirely, regardless of age or your stature in the league. If a coach can't get his star player to play defense that's a team cancer. If that said player is completely oblivious to the fact that he's worthless on that end and calls out teammates for effort (publicly even), then that's a pretty huge failure in leadership. If I have to work with someone like that, I immediately label him a clown and can't take him seriously.

[BStanRamFan]

1 minute ago, Mossburg said:

I suppose the point I am trying to make more is that coaches are in large part responsible for holding player accountable on the defensive end. There's no excuse for stopping playing defense entirely, regardless of age or your stature in the league. If a coach can't get his star player to play defense that's a team cancer.

Agree about everything, but the cancer part. He can't stop playing defense entirely. Even if you scheme him against a teams least offensive weapon he still needs to contest shots and watch passing lanes. I think LeBron is just checked out this season after his injury and the state of the team. It's not a good look, but in 10 years we won't remember this stretch of a few months. People still forget about the half season Jordan got bounced by the Magic in the 2nd round. Never is brought up in his 6 for 6 run lol

This is just a wasted season marred by his first real injury. I hope they don't make the playoffs so he can finally get a full offseason of rest.

[seminoles1]

15 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

One of the reason Lebron has more stats is because Jordan went to college....where he won a championship and MVP. 

Oh.

[Mossburg]

2 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

Agree about everything, but the cancer part. He can't stop playing defense entirely. Even if you scheme him against a teams least offensive weapon he still needs to contest shots and watch passing lanes. I think LeBron is just checked out this season after his injury and the state of the team. It's not a good look, but in 10 years we won't remember this stretch of a few months. People still forget about the half season Jordan got bounced by the Magic in the 2nd round. Never is brought up in his 6 for 6 run lol

This is just a wasted season marred by his first real injury. I hope they don't make the playoffs so he can finally get a full offseason of rest.

Maybe that's the difference between Jordan and LeBron. I don't think Jordan was much of an entrepreneur while he was a player. Sure he did commercials, but I dunno if he was trying to own or run ventures. He was more focused on killing his opponents and wanting something he accomplished multiple times more than the guy who is trying to do it his first time. Then again he had the greatest coach who would never let him coast. All speculation of course, but hard to not try to read into the debacle.

[dtait93]

6 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

The teams Jordan beat in the Finals combined for 7 HOF( Magic, Worthy, Clyde, Gary Payton, Barkley, Stockton, Malone). Also, no team had more than 2 HoF at a time. (Worthy was hurt in the Finals vs Bulls). And Jordan played against teams that had Danny Ainge starting twice (Suns and Blazers). LeBron never played a single "Dan" in the Finals lol the competition between the two eras is non-comparable. You can say "tougher" and I'd agree, but talent level was not even close.

The teams LeBron beat will have 9 HoF( KD, Harden, Russ, Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, Steph, Klay, Draymon) and also had multiple HoF's at one time. Beating two Dynasties (Spurs and Warriors)

The Spurs weren't a dynasty at that point. Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker were all past their primes. Durant, Westbrook, and Harden hadn't entered their primes yet when Lebron beat them either. So to just list future HOF players is pretty meaningless without mentioning where they were in their careers. Also, Worthy only missed game 5 in which the Bulls were already up 3-1, that series was a wrap. But if you want to point to Jordan benefiting from players missing games, why not point to how Lebron benefited from Bogut getting hurt and Draymond's suspension in 2016?

As for Danny Ainge, he wasn't a starter for either the Suns or Blazers. No idea where you're getting your information from.

 

53 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

In a manner of legacy, Jordan QUIT twice and couldn't win anything without a top 30 player of all time and arguably the greatest coach of all time.

This will go back and forth for hours so this will be my last post on the topic. My original point and what I stand by is, if LeBron wins 4 rings/4 Finals MVP's it will be on 3 different teams as "the man", which no one has done. He did it in the era of "super teams". He will blow Jordan away in all time rebounds, points, and assists. He will likely finish top 2 in scoring all time and is already top 10 in assists. If he does do all of that, he will be 1 in my eyes and should atleast move to 1B for the most die hard Jordan fans as well. He is #2 right now.

I don't think quitting is a topic you want to bring up when talking about Lebron lol. He's "quit" more times than Jordan if you want to call it quitting. Jordan needed Scottie, but Lebron needed 2 super stars and that's because he created the, "super team" era. He doesn't get extra credit for playing in an era he created.

Bulk stats are cool and all if you want to make a longevity case, other than that there's no reason to bring it up. Jordan is light years better at half of the game (defense) is unquestionably the better scorer in an era that was much harder to score in, is the better clutch player, performed better in the Finals, and is the overall more efficient player. Lebron is better at distributing, grabbing boards, losing in the Finals, and winning bronze medals.

[Mossburg]

3 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Bulk stats are cool and all if you want to make a longevity case, other than that there's no reason to bring it up. Jordan is light years better at half of the game (defense) is unquestionably the better scorer in an era that was much harder to score in, is the better clutch player, performed better in the Finals, and is the overall more efficient player. Lebron is better at distributing, grabbing boards, losing in the Finals, and winning bronze medals.

This gets thrown around a lot, but there's nothing out there that proves that. Yes you can post some highlight vids of hard fouls, but the stats from those eras don't back up better defense. If you look up late 80s and early 90s team numbers, teams were scoring a ton of points with a comically low amount of 3pt shots, which is almost unfathomable given how the game is played today. Late 90s and early 00s the NBA had a far more defensive oriented shift, but that was the towards the end of Jordan's career. Fact is Jordan's massive scoring numbers came during an era where the entire league was putting up cartoon numbers, this myth of it was tough to score back in the day is just that, a myth.

[BStanRamFan]

12 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

The Spurs weren't a dynasty at that point. Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker were all past their primes. Durant, Westbrook, and Harden hadn't entered their primes yet when Lebron beat them either. So to just list future HOF players is pretty meaningless without mentioning where they were in their careers. Also, Worthy only missed game 5 in which the Bulls were already up 3-1, that series was a wrap. But if you want to point to Jordan benefiting from players missing games, why not point to how Lebron benefited from Bogut getting hurt and Draymond's suspension in 2016?

As for Danny Ainge, he wasn't a starter for either the Suns or Blazers. No idea where you're getting your information from.

 

I don't think quitting is a topic you want to bring up when talking about Lebron lol. He's "quit" more times than Jordan if you want to call it quitting. Jordan needed Scottie, but Lebron needed 2 super stars and that's because he created the, "super team" era. He doesn't get extra credit for playing in an era he created.

Bulk stats are cool and all if you want to make a longevity case, other than that there's no reason to bring it up. Jordan is light years better at half of the game (defense) is unquestionably the better scorer in an era that was much harder to score in, is the better clutch player, performed better in the Finals, and is the overall more efficient player. Lebron is better at distributing, grabbing boards, losing in the Finals, and winning bronze medals.

1. The Spurs won 5 NBA Finals in 15 years. With the last one in 2014. They are a dynasty. And had future HoF Kawahi Leonard on there. I apologize.

2. Let's not forget Kyrie and Kevin Love missed 2015 NBA Finals if you want to talk about injury. And when Draymon came back from suspension LeBron gave him 40.  Twice.

3. My apologies. Dan Majerle started for the Suns. Got my white Dans mixed up lol Ainge was a starter on and off during the year and played starter minutes in the NBA Finals.

4. Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce started the superteam era. LeBron needed to form a superteam to beat them.

5. He is not more clutch. There is no statistical evidence to prove that. LeBron has more game winners, more game winners in the playoffs, and shoots a higher % on game winning shots. 

6. LeBron also shoots a higher FG % overall, so he is more efficient. He is also a higher % 3pt shooter. Jordan is better at FT % and guarding white guys named Dan. I tip my cap for locking up first team all defense in an era of UPS drivers and mullets sprinkled with few actual great guards. This was the era dominated by big men, remember. Clyde and Isaiah were the HoF level guards. No one else was Jordan guarding that would warrant such illustrious accolades on defense. The Dream Team has only 4 guards listed. Clyde, Jordan, Stockton, and Magic.

[dtait93]

4 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

1. The Spurs won 5 NBA Finals in 15 years. With the last one in 2014. They are a dynasty. And had future HoF Kawahi Leonard on there. I apologize.

No they were a dynasty from 1999-2007 in which they won 4. They won their 5th 7 years later in 2014 when they were no longer a dynasty. Kawhi wasn't a HoF caliber player at that point either and Lebron was still scared of him.

 

8 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

2. Let's not forget Kyrie and Kevin Love missed 2015 NBA Finals if you want to talk about injury. And when Draymon came back from suspension LeBron gave him 40.  Twice.

I'm not the one who brought up injuries, but since we're talking about it, let's not forget how Lebron went from averaging 24 ppg to 36 ppg after Bogut got injured.

And since we're also talking about 40 point performances... in the 1993 Finals, Jordan put up 40+. Four times. Including a 55 point performance.

 

25 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

3. My apologies. Dan Majerle started for the Suns. Got my white Dans mixed up lol Ainge was a starter on and off during the year and played starter minutes in the NBA Finals.

Incorrect. Ainge started a total of 6 games for the Blazers in 1992. In the playoffs he started 0 games. In the Finals he played the 7th most minutes.

 

31 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

4. Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Paul Pierce started the superteam era. LeBron needed to form a superteam to beat them.

You mean the super team of Allen, Garnett, and Pierce who were 33, 34, and 35 and way past their primes when Lebron formed the Miami super team and lost to Dirk and the rag tag crew of JJ Barea, the Jet, and 37 year old Jason Kidd? Not the GOAT.

 

37 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

5. He is not more clutch. There is no statistical evidence to prove that. LeBron has more game winners, more game winners in the playoffs, and shoots a higher % on game winning shots.

No idea what he's at now, but whatever it is, it's not much higher than 10.6%.

 

56 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

6. LeBron also shoots a higher FG % overall, so he is more efficient. He is also a higher % 3pt shooter. Jordan is better at FT % and guarding white guys named Dan. I tip my cap for locking up first team all defense in an era of UPS drivers and mullets sprinkled with few actual great guards. This was the era dominated by big men, remember. Clyde and Isaiah were the HoF level guards. No one else was Jordan guarding that would warrant such illustrious accolades on defense. The Dream Team has only 4 guards listed. Clyde, Jordan, Stockton, and Magic.

PER measures the totality of a players efficiency and Jordan's is higher, therefore he is more efficient. The gap will only widen as Lebron ages.

Your view of Jordan's era shows how uneducated you are.