MKnight82's Top 20 Most Talented Redskins of 2019 - #1 & 2 Up

[HTTRDynasty]

I think Payne has a much higher ceiling than Allen, though I think Allen is the better player right now. 

[MKnight82]

10 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

I think Payne has a much higher ceiling than Allen, though I think Allen is the better player right now. 

That’s valid.  I’m projecting next year though.

[MKnight82]

3 hours ago, Jeezy Fanatic said:

I don’t think Payne is better than Allen. I also don’t think Scherff is better than either.

Scherff has two pro bowls.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

I think Payne has a much higher ceiling than Allen, though I think Allen is the better player right now. 

I don’t. I don’t think Payne reaches Allen’s current level, let alone Allen’s ceiling. They’re different types of players.

Allen is always going to be the better pass rusher and a stout run defender at 3-4 DE/3-tech.

Payne is always going to be a stout run defender, but how much better can he get at that? Sure he can improve, but not an extreme amount more and not to the point when he’s that much better vs the run than Allen. Also, he’s not as good of a pass rusher as Allen is now, and I don’t foresee a day where he’s even as good of a pass rusher as Allen currently is let alone be as good of a pass rusher as Allen can get to at his ceiling.

Edited June 27, 2019 by turtle28

[turtle28]

6 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Scherff has two pro bowls.

Fan voting, it’s a popularity contest 

[HTTRDynasty]

26 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I don’t. I don’t think Payne reaches Allen’s current level, let alone Allen’s ceiling. They’re different types of players.

Allen is always going to be the better pass rusher and a stout run defender at 3-4 DE/3-tech.

Payne is always going to be a stout run defender, but how much better can he get at that? Sure he can improve, but not an extreme amount more and not to the point when he’s that much better vs the run than Allen. Also, he’s not as good of a pass rusher as Allen is now, and I don’t foresee a day where he’s even as good as pass rusher as Allen currently is let alone be as good of a pass rusher as Allen can get to at his ceiling.

What makes Allen a better pass rusher than Payne, currently? 

[turtle28]

55 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

What makes Allen a better pass rusher than Payne, currently? 

He’s quicker, uses better leverage, has better hand movement and more effective at pass rush moves than Payne. Allen has been more effective as a pass rusher than Payne dating back to their college days from 5 years ago and he’s done that despite always being the one that opposing offenses focus on blocking more both in college at Alabama & for the Redskins and Allen is the one who usually takes on double teams while Payne goes one on one.

Edited June 27, 2019 by turtle28

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

He’s quicker, uses better leverage, has better hand movement and more effective at pass rush moves than Payne. Allen has been more effective as a pass rusher than Payne dating back to their college days from 5 years ago and he’s done that despite always being the one that opposing offenses focus on blocking more both in college at Alabama & for the Redskins and Allen is the one who usually takes on double teams while Payne goes one on one.

First of all, this is coming from the guy who loved Allen as a prospect and was much higher on Vea and James than Payne.  But I focused on the DL exclusively in all the games I've re-watched this year (I know, I need to get a life).  My conclusion: I was wrong to want Vea instead.  Payne is a beast in the making, both as a pass rusher and run defender.

Most of the things you named are due to experience, which isn't surprising, considering Allen is 2 and a half years older than Payne.  Of course his technique will be superior.  However, Payne still has so much room to get better technique-wise, it's scary.  

I definitely disagree that Allen is quicker.  One guy had a 10-yard split of 1.74 seconds at 286 pounds, which the other clocked in at 1.67 seconds weighing 311 pounds.  And just watching the film it's clear to me that Payne is the quicker player.

If Payne improves technique-wise - mostly by becoming better at tying his hands to his feet - I believe he can become a Fletcher Cox level nightmare for opposing teams.  That's his ceiling.  I don't think Allen can ever be that.  He lacks the same physical gifts.  I think Allen will be one of our best players for the next decade if he stays healthy, but I don't think he'll ever have the ceiling of a top 5 DL in this league, which is what I think Payne can become.

By the way, do you have any proof that Allen was double-teamed more than Payne?  I didn't keep a tally or anything in the games I watched, but I didn't see any one player consistently being double-teamed over the other.

Edited June 27, 2019 by HTTRG3Dynasty

[turtle28]

48 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

First of all, this is coming from the guy who loved Allen as a prospect and was much higher on Vea and James than Payne.  But I focused on the DL exclusively in all the games I've re-watched this year (I know, I need to get a life).  My conclusion: I was wrong to want Vea instead - Payne is a beast in the making, both as a pass rusher and run defender.

Most of the things you named are due to experience, which isn't surprising, considering Allen is 2 and a half years older than Payne.  Of course his technique will be superior.  However, Payne still has so much room to get better technique-wise, it's scary.  

I definitely disagree that Allen is quicker.  One guy had a 10-yard split of 1.74 seconds at 286 pounds, which the other clocked in at 1.67 seconds weighing 311 pounds.  And just watching the film it's clear to me that Payne is the quicker player.

If Payne improves technique-wise - mostly by becoming better at tying his feet to his hands - I believe he can become a Fletcher Cox level nightmare for opposing teams.  That's his ceiling.  I don't think Allen can ever be that.  He lacks the same physical gifts.  I think Allen will be one of our best players for the next decade if he stays healthy, but I don't think he'll ever have the ceiling of a top 5 DL in this league, which is what I think Payne can become.

By the way, do you have any proof that Allen was double-teamed more than Payne?  I didn't keep a tally or anything in the games I watched, but I didn't see any one player consistently being double-teamed over the other.

Well yeah, I told you Payne was a better prospect than Vea definitely as a pass rusher. 

I don’t have documented proof, but Allen is the teams best DL and every clip of film I’ve seen, watched live or watched a replay I see Allen getting doubled - same thing when they played next to each other at Bama. Allen is the guy opponents focus on bc he’s our best player in the front 7. The C more often than not doubles towards Allen not Payne or Ioannidis and this frees the other players up.

I disagree, I think Allen already is a Fletcher Cox type player. He overpowers blockers and makes plays in the backfield a lot and he had 8 sacks last year. Allen gets doubled more than Ioannidis and Payne and he got more sacks then both of them.

On top of that, Allen was good as a rookie w/o Payne on the team. Again, Allen was great before his injury and our defense was good overall to start the 2017 season despite Allen being doubled most of the time.  In 2017 when  Allen was doubled it allowed Ioannidis and Hood got singled up vs their guy which is a main reason Ioannidis started the first 6 games of 2017 w/ 3.5 sacks but only had 1 the rest of the year. Then, Allen got hurt vs San Fran in 2017 and our D started to fall apart. 

It’s him, it’s Allen, he’s the key cog. I’m not saying Payne isn’t great and isn’t important but I think and have seen that Allen is more important, even as a rookie it showed how much Allen was important bc how bad the D was after his season ending injury.

Edited June 27, 2019 by turtle28

[HTTRDynasty]

8 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Well yeah, I told you Payne was a better prospect than Vea definitely as a pass rusher. 

I don’t have documented proof, but Allen is the teams best DL and every clip of film I’ve seen, watched live or watched a replay I see Allen getting doubled - same thing when they played next to each other at Bama. Allen is the guy opponents focus on bc he’s our best player in the front 7. The C more often than not doubles towards Allen not Payne or Ioannidis and this frees the other players up.

I disagree, I think Allen already is a Fletcher Cox type player. He overpowers blockers and makes plays in the backfield a lot and he had 8 sacks last year. Allen gets doubled more than Ioannidis and Payne and he got more sacks then both of them.

On top of that, Allen was good as a rookie w/o Payne on the team and again Allen was great before his injury and our defense was good overall to start the 2017 season despite Allen being doubled most of the time and when he was Ioannidis and Hood got singled up vs their guy. Then Allen got hurt vs San Fran in 2017 and our D started to fall apart. 

I asked originally what makes Allen a better pass rusher than Payne currently because I wanted to see if you could name anything that Payne can't develop as he gains more experience.  You haven't.  Plus Payne is more athletic.  Ergo, his higher overall ceiling.

The double team argument is pointless if you can't prove it.  I've seen plenty of highlights and replays where Allen isn't getting doubled and someone else on the line is.  

Allen is not a Fletcher Cox type player.  You're talking about a dude who would be the best DL in the league if not for Aaron Donald.  Allen is not that.

[Jeezy Fanatic]

10 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

Scherff has two pro bowls.

If it’s who is the most talented, I think both are better players and more talented. 

[Jeezy Fanatic]

Like both players but I’m with @turtle28 here, I like Allen as a better player and think he has a higher ceiling as well.

[turtle28]

7 hours ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

I asked originally what makes Allen a better pass rusher than Payne currently because I wanted to see if you could name anything that Payne can't develop as he gains more experience.  You haven't.  Plus Payne is more athletic.  Ergo, his higher overall ceiling.

The double team argument is pointless if you can't prove it.  I've seen plenty of highlights and replays where Allen isn't getting doubled and someone else on the line is.  

Allen is not a Fletcher Cox type player.  You're talking about a dude who would be the best DL in the league if not for Aaron Donald.  Allen is not that.

I answered the question you had and you acknowledged that I did, interesting one post later you forgot that. With the rest, I just Disagree entirely.

I guess we’ll see how their careers pan out but so far while I love them both, I love Allen what he’s done more. And, I think he has more of an unnoticed impact and other teams focus on shutting Allen down more than Payne/Ioannidis which helps the other two show up.

Edited June 27, 2019 by turtle28

[HTTRDynasty]

36 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I answered the question you had and you acknowledged that I did, interesting one post later you forgot that. 

What?  Re-read my post. I’m still acknowledging that you did. I’m also saying that you didn’t name any skills for Allen that Payne can’t develop with more experience, which gives him a higher ceiling. 

[turtle28]

2 minutes ago, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

What?  Re-read my post. I’m still acknowledging that you did. I’m also saying that you didn’t name any skills for Allen that Payne can’t develop with more experience, which gives him a higher ceiling. 

Oh ok, I guess I did read it wrong. So basically you’re going with the “this guy could be better if he develops to be as good as the other guy,” instead of the guy who’s currently better, more consistent, is also still young and can improve as well?