LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 Also, that UFA they brought in got 250k guaranteed. Obv that’s not indicative of anything long term, but I think it’s clear they perhaps like him and expect more from him than we do as fans. It wouldn’t surprise me at all for him to make the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Also, that UFA they brought in got 250k guaranteed. Obv that’s not indicative of anything long term, but I think it’s clear they perhaps like him and expect more from him than we do as fans. It wouldn’t surprise me at all for him to make the team. https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/05/01/cleveland-browns-2021-udfa-tracker-marvin-wilson/ Quote The #Browns are signing former Florida State DT Marvin Wilson to a huge rookie free-agent deal that includes a $30,000 signing bonus plus $162,000 in guaranteed base salary, per source. Cleveland won a swift bidding war for Wilson, one of the top players to go undrafted. — Tom Pelissero (@TomPelissero) May 1, 2021 https://www.si.com/college/fsu/football/cleveland-browns-release-marvin-wilson Quote With just three pre-season games this year due to the new 17 game schedule, the exhibitions are complete and the regular season is set to kick off in less than two weeks. That means NFL teams are already in the process of finalizing their 53-man rosters. In what may be a possible surprise to Florida State fans, former defensive lineman Marvin Wilson was released by the Cleveland Browns on Monday afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 minute ago, MWil23 said: https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/05/01/cleveland-browns-2021-udfa-tracker-marvin-wilson/ https://www.si.com/college/fsu/football/cleveland-browns-release-marvin-wilson I’m aware. 15 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Also, that UFA they brought in got 250k guaranteed. Obv that’s not indicative of anything long term, but I think it’s clear they perhaps like him and expect more from him than we do as fans. It wouldn’t surprise me at all for him to make the team. But also… https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/26/browns-give-undrafted-cb-a-j-green-a-whopping-bonus-to-sign/ This will be his 4th year with the team. I’m just saying that most of this board had never heard of this dude a week ago and many probably have no clue who is or what he’s about now. The team obviously likes him a decent bit and it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s someone who plays a bigger role on this team throughout the season than we’re expecting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’m aware. But also… https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/26/browns-give-undrafted-cb-a-j-green-a-whopping-bonus-to-sign/ This will be his 4th year with the team. I’m just saying that most of this board had never heard of this dude a week ago and many probably have no clue who is or what he’s about now. The team obviously likes him a decent bit and it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s someone who plays a bigger role on this team throughout the season than we’re expecting. Fair, but I'd even argue that Green has never played that big of a role here (which I think is actually a shame because I like him), so I'd say expecting a UDFA to make the team and be considered "addressing the LB position" is, at best, pie in the sky and unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Fair, but I'd even argue that Green has never played that big of a role here (which I think is actually a shame because I like him), I think that’s more indicative of the talent ahead of him than anything else. When he has played he’s been solid. 3 minutes ago, MWil23 said: so I'd say expecting a UDFA to make the team and be considered "addressing the LB position" is, at best, pie in the sky and unrealistic. Yes and no, depending on expectations. I think both he and Hall (rb) have a good shot at making the team both due to the team’s investment and lack of depth at that position. I also think both positions are ones where day 3/UDFA can come in and play a small role that can expand over time. I think an UDFA is not terribly different than a 5th or 6th rounder and not getting one of those guys has been a magnified criticism for a week now. I’m not saying this guy is transforming our LB room, just that it wouldn’t surprise me if he has a skill set they like as a LB5 or LB6 who’s gonna primarily play ST and maybe provide some pass rush versatility from the LB spot. He’s possibly a different type of player than we currently have and could add to the room in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 Here’s the long and short of it. The team is banking on improvement in the run game coming from a few factors. 1. Deshaun Watson playing like Deshaun Watson and forcing teams to pass the ball more which would play to our strengths personnel wise. Less rushing attempts = less yards = “improving” against the run 2. Our completely revamped DL. Tomlinson is a proven run defender and Ika looks to be the type of guy who at a min should make an impact there. Obo seems at least willing to play on running downs, unlike a certain individual last season. 3. Scheme change. Our run defense is probably the single biggest reason Woods is no longer here. Schwartz is a guy who’s proven to be competent at a minimum. 4. organic growth. Fields, JOK, Wright, Winfrey, Thomas, and Togiai are all guys entering year 2 or 3 in the front 7 and would be candidates to potentially see a notable improvement in their play as they acclimate to the league. That’s at least 4 different ways our run defense could/should improve that has nothing to do with linebackers. If those things happen I feel pretty confident our run defense is going to be at a minimum average. If that first thing doesn’t happen it’s not really gonna matter tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Here’s the long and short of it. The team is banking on improvement in the run game coming from a few factors. 1. Deshaun Watson playing like Deshaun Watson and forcing teams to pass the ball more which would play to our strengths personnel wise. Less rushing attempts = less yards = “improving” against the run 90% of everything in this organization going forward comes down to Watson. If he plays like he did last year, goodbye FO and coaching staff. It's panic time. 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: 2. Our completely revamped DL. Tomlinson is a proven run defender and Ika looks to be the type of guy who at a min should make an impact there. Obo seems at least willing to play on running downs, unlike a certain individual last season. Our interior DL on paper is better. Our EDGE situation is a push at best IMO. 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: 3. Scheme change. Our run defense is probably the single biggest reason Woods is no longer here. Schwartz is a guy who’s proven to be competent at a minimum. I literally can't see it possibly being worse 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: 4. organic growth. Fields, JOK, Wright, Winfrey, Thomas, and Togiai are all guys entering year 2 or 3 in the front 7 and would be candidates to potentially see a notable improvement in their play as they acclimate to the league. Let's hope it happens. I think it does with Wright, Fields, and JOK. Winfrey seems like a "this guy just doesn't get it" type person to me, but let's hope I'm wrong. 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: That’s at least 4 different ways our run defense could/should improve that has nothing to do with linebackers. I mean, #4 more or less is to a degree considering you named 2 LB 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: If those things happen I feel pretty confident our run defense is going to be at a minimum average. If that first thing doesn’t happen it’s not really gonna matter tbh. I'd take average in a heartbeat right now...we have been average like 1-2 times in 24 years here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: 90% of everything in this organization going forward comes down to Watson. If he plays like he did last year, goodbye FO and coaching staff. It's panic time. Agreed. And like, it’s not a bad plan. Find good QB and build around him. The only issue is the particular QB and his off the field actions. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Our interior DL on paper is better. Our EDGE situation is a push at best IMO. Tomlinson is head and shoulders better than anyone we had last season. Ika is likely notably better against the run than the guys we had, particularly inside runs. Hurst is also lightweight being slept on. His issue isn’t talent or play, simply health. When he plays he’s actually pretty damned solid. Let’s hope he can stay reasonably healthy. Hill is Bryan imo. Talented as hell, but can he put it all together? 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I literally can't see it possibly being worse games like ATL and LAC are inexcusable imo. Stopping the run in the NFL is largely nothing more than a numbers game. Everyone should be able to stop the run with 8 in the box, but at what price? Imagine not forcing Mariota to beat you with his arm… 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Let's hope it happens. I think it does with Wright, Fields, and JOK. Winfrey seems like a "this guy just doesn't get it" type person to me, but let's hope I'm wrong. I think Winfrey is a talented idiot. They just need to keep him close enough to the straight and narrow that he can contribute. I think he’s going to have a come to Jesus moment when he gets to camp and realizes he’s not guaranteed a roster spot too. Or at least I hope so. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I mean, #4 more or less is to a degree considering you named 2 LB I suppose I meant nothing to do with adding talent at LB 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I'd take average in a heartbeat right now...we have been average like 1-2 times in 24 years here. https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/defense/rushing/2022/reg/all We’re closer to average than you’d expect. Reduce the ypc by a bit as well as the total rushing attempts against and we’re smack dab in the middle of average. There were games out defense was “fine” or the rushing yards didn’t mean much as it didn’t lead to points (ravens game). I think most of us are still experiencing ptsd after games like ATL, LAC, BUF, NO, MIA. Some of those teams have good ground games and are gonna run the ball and that’s fine, but you can’t let teams drop 200 yards on your ****in noggin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: We’re closer to average than you’d expect. Reduce the ypc by a bit as well as the total rushing attempts against and we’re smack dab in the middle of average. ...okay, I'll bite: How in the world can you casually say both reduce the YPC by a bit AND the total rushing attempts against? ...what other metrics are there to evaluate in the rush defense category? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 minute ago, MWil23 said: ...okay, I'll bite: How in the world can you casually say both reduce the YPC by a bit AND the total rushing attempts against? I mean, the attempts against is pretty simple. If we’re winning and winning late teams are passing instead of running. We’ve seen it for decades where our offense is fairly balanced for 2-3 quarters and then by the end of the game Weeden or Kizer or whoever all of a sudden has 40 attempts because we stopped running in the 4th because we needed points. I’m not saying it casually, but like we all saw the schematic issues last season. I don’t think NOT playing asinine schemes and refusing to go big up front, or stack the box or blitz, etc when teams are killing you on the ground is a wild thought. Adding guys like Tomlinson, Ika, McLeod vs JJIII who looked to be making business decisions, etc aren’t going to be a positive impact at all? A tenth or two of a ypc? 1 minute ago, MWil23 said: ...what other metrics are there to evaluate in the rush defense category? LOL Rush efficiency? DVOA. Keeping teams behind the sticks, being stout in goal line/3rd and short situations. Keeping teams behind the sticks plays right into the first point as well. If it’s 2nd or 3rd and 8 the odds of a team running is a good bit less than 3rd and 1 or 2. Less carries, less yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 This is where context and situation matter as well. A run of x yard isn’t always weighted the same when it comes to relevance and winning. A 9 yard run on 1st and 10 is brutal. You’ve all but given the opposing offense either a free shot downfield or a new set of downs on the next play. That same 9 yard run on 3rd and 14 is often irrelevant. Same rushing yards, same number of attempts, completely different relevance. ATL vs BAL last year were good examples of this tbh. Against Baltimore we allowed almost 200 yards on the ground but it was largely irrelevant as it was mostly just between the 20s and didn’t lead to points. ATL however took the ball and ran it down our throats for 2 key scores, touchdowns, late in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 29 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I mean, the attempts against is pretty simple. If we’re winning and winning late teams are passing instead of running. We’ve seen it for decades where our offense is fairly balanced for 2-3 quarters and then by the end of the game Weeden or Kizer or whoever all of a sudden has 40 attempts because we stopped running in the 4th because we needed points. Yes and No How many of those games are we down that much because we can't stop the run at all from the onset? 29 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’m not saying it casually, but like we all saw the schematic issues last season. I don’t think NOT playing asinine schemes and refusing to go big up front, or stack the box or blitz, etc when teams are killing you on the ground is a wild thought. No disagreement there 29 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Adding guys like Tomlinson, Ika, McLeod vs JJIII who looked to be making business decisions, etc aren’t going to be a positive impact at all? A tenth or two of a ypc? Perhaps so, no doubt. That said, JJ3 was legit in L.A. with the Rams then made business decisions here. For all we know, Tomlinson and McLeod are the next dudes in a long line of people who got paid and check(ed) out. Paul Kruger, Willie McGinest, the list goes on. 29 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Rush efficiency? DVOA. Keeping teams behind the sticks, being stout in goal line/3rd and short situations. Again, context matters and I'd like to see anything to the contrary here. 29 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Keeping teams behind the sticks plays right into the first point as well. If it’s 2nd or 3rd and 8 the odds of a team running is a good bit less than 3rd and 1 or 2. Less carries, less yards. For sure, it's very important 17 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is where context and situation matter as well. A run of x yard isn’t always weighted the same when it comes to relevance and winning. A 9 yard run on 1st and 10 is brutal. You’ve all but given the opposing offense either a free shot downfield or a new set of downs on the next play. That same 9 yard run on 3rd and 14 is often irrelevant. Same rushing yards, same number of attempts, completely different relevance. Not disagreeing with any of this. 17 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: ATL vs BAL last year were good examples of this tbh. Against Baltimore we allowed almost 200 yards on the ground but it was largely irrelevant as it was mostly just between the 20s and didn’t lead to points. ATL however took the ball and ran it down our throats for 2 key scores, touchdowns, late in the game. Whereas vs. Baltimore in October they ran for over 160 and 2 TD while needing only 94 passing yards to beat us, going 7 for 15 on third downs and 2/2 on 4th Downs, only punting the ball 3 total times and winning time of possession. Heck, they even tied us in the 2nd half/we outscored them in the 4th Quarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Yes and No How many of those games are we down that much because we can't stop the run at all from the onset? That’s fair. 3 minutes ago, MWil23 said: No disagreement there Perhaps so, no doubt. That said, JJ3 was legit in L.A. with the Rams then made business decisions here. For all we know, Tomlinson and McLeod are the next dudes in a long line of people who got paid and check(ed) out. Paul Kruger, Willie McGinest, the list goes on. Tomlinson could absolutely be that guy I suppose, but this isn’t his second contract. That’s where you tend to see it the most, when guys may get “real money” for the first time. I’d be stunned if McLeod was that guy considering he didn’t really get paid (I’m assuming) and his history with gym shorts. Not sure if Willie quit do much as just got old. He was like 35 or some ish when we signed him to A THREE YEAR DEAL!! 3 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Again, context matters and I'd like to see anything to the contrary here. For sure, it's very important Not disagreeing with any of this. Whereas vs. Baltimore in October they ran for over 160 and 2 TD while needing only 94 passing yards to beat us, going 7 for 15 on third downs and 2/2 on 4th Downs, only punting the ball 3 total times and winning time of possession. Heck, they even tied us in the 2nd half/we outscored them in the 4th Quarter. Absolutely, we were all over the place last season. I had zero faith we’d stop anyone ever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdrawkcab321 Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 7 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I think they have 4 legit linebackers. And by legit I mean NFL quality. JOK needs to take the next step and be an impactful guy at the second level, but he has high level tools and versatility that can have notable impact on games. Walker is fine starting linebacker. He’s had the 3rd best coverage rating for off ball linebackers over the last 2 seasons per PFF. He’s a guy who’s a net neutral type player. Not winning you any games, not losing you any games. I disagree completely about Takitaki. He’s another perfectly capable, “fine” starter. He’s far and away the most physical linebacker we have. He looked ok at SAM last year but he actually turned things up a notch or two when he moved inside to MIKE due to injuries. Another net neutral type of player. Those 3 guys to me are NFL starters, unfortunately 2 are coming off injuries. Fields to me also look like an NFL quality player. The last few games of the season when he finally started getting some snaps he flashed a good bit imo. Not sure if he’s ready to take on a starting role just yet, mostly due to a small sample side, but has flashed and shows WILL abilities. Adams is also another NFL, but his role seems to be as a special teamer. Which is fine. Phillips has been bad, no question, but he’s also still just 24. In theory I suppose he could improve, but I’m not holding my breath. IDK, I guess I just don’t see it as inconceivable to think we get “good enough” play from this group with guys like Fields and JOK getting a year older and playing for a guy in Schwartz who’s been consistently capable of fielding competent defenses. It also wouldn’t shock me to see AB make a move in training camp for a linebacker if this group is underwhelming. I could almost convince myself of all this this too. If we didn’t just see it last year. Literally the same LB group with a few new ST guys. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted May 5, 2023 Share Posted May 5, 2023 12 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said: I could almost convince myself of all this this too. If we didn’t just see it last year. Literally the same LB group with a few new ST guys. It is. The big tell will be the coaching upgrades. Schematically, we were doing some @$$ backwards things at LB. But maybe it’s because they suck, maybe it’s because the coaches sucked. We shall see. I have a feeling it was the coaches. That said, this is an average LB core at best with the GOAT coaches, IMO. JOK is a stud in the making if we put him at STAR. As a WILL, he’s useless aside from blatant passing downs. That is the only star we have. Walker, Fields, Phillips, & Takitaki are average at their ceilings. My gripe with our draft was leaving WLB unaddressed. It likely means we’re keeping JOK on the weak side, which is sucky. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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