NFL General Discussion

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

14 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

All 4 LBs taken in the 1st round have had their 5th year option declined

 

 

There’s something to be said for the fact that teams aren’t willing to pay these contracts.  Even the Bears decided against paying Roquan and he developed into everything they hoped he’d be.

I think there’s only a handful of linebackers who make enough of an impact to be worth the 15-20 million a year the top guys get.  Like, you have to be REALLY good as an off ball linebacker for there to be value in a 20 million a year deal.

 

[MWil23]

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

There’s something to be said for the fact that teams aren’t willing to pay these contracts.  Even the Bears decided against paying Roquan and he developed into everything they hoped he’d be.

I think there’s only a handful of linebackers who make enough of an impact to be worth the 15-20 million a year the top guys get.  Like, you have to be REALLY good as an off ball linebacker for there to be value in a 20 million a year deal.

 

The new CBA really screwed over LB and RB to be honest. There's a lot more to the modern game than "these guys don't factor into wins/losses", as their relative primes are much shorter. So yes, that absolutely factors into the market value with a lot of these guys, and so when you get a Fred Warner on a cheap rookie deal, you're fine paying him and Bobby Wagner a big second contract, because for 4 years they way overperformed that amount.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

The new CBA really screwed over LB and RB to be honest. There's a lot more to the modern game than "these guys don't factor into wins/losses", as their relative primes are much shorter. So yes, that absolutely factors into the market value with a lot of these guys, and so when you get a Fred Warner on a cheap rookie deal, you're fine paying him and Bobby Wagner a big second contract, because for 4 years they way overperformed that amount.

But other than Smith, Warner, Leonard and Wagner is there even another LB who’s worth that kind of money?  

[MWil23]

21 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

But other than Smith, Warner, Leonard and Wagner is there even another LB who’s worth that kind of money?  

Parsons is without a doubt. Lavontae David in his prime as well as Shaq Leonard definitely are.

Keep an eye on Matt Milano and Dre Greenwood as well going forward, as well as T.J. Edwards.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Parsons is without a doubt. Lavontae David in his prime as well as Shaq Leonard definitely are.

Parsons isn’t really an off ball guy, he’s got 26.5 sacks in 2 years.

David was a stud for sure and worth a big contract.  

3 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Keep an eye on Matt Milano and Dre Greenwood as well going forward, as well as T.J. Edwards.

 

those guys are all good, but I’m not sure they’re 20 a year good

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Parsons isn’t really an off ball guy, he’s got 26.5 sacks in 2 years.

He's a hybrid though. He has 149 tackles (over 100 solo) in 2 years.

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

David was a stud for sure and worth a big contract.  

 

those guys are all good, but I’m not sure they’re 20 a year good

That's why I said "keep an eye on".  

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

36 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

He's a hybrid though. He has 149 tackles (over 100 solo) in 2 years.

Sure, but he’s not gonna be getting paid based on solo tackles.  It’s the sacks, c’mon man lol

36 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

That's why I said "keep an eye on".  

Milano is already 28, how much longer should we wait lol

And just because it’s relevant 2 of those guys were 5th rounders and the other was undrafted.

[MWil23]

16 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Sure, but he’s not gonna be getting paid based on solo tackles.  It’s the sacks, c’mon man lol

You said "He's not an off ball linebacker". He literally IS and then can/does kick to the EDGE in pass rushing situations.

16 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Milano is already 28, how much longer should we wait lol

Til his contract is up?

16 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

And just because it’s relevant 2 of those guys were 5th rounders and the other was undrafted.

Sounds like I already answered this

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

The new CBA really screwed over LB and RB to be honest. There's a lot more to the modern game than "these guys don't factor into wins/losses", as their relative primes are much shorter. So yes, that absolutely factors into the market value with a lot of these guys, and so when you get a Fred Warner on a cheap rookie deal, you're fine paying him and Bobby Wagner a big second contract, because for 4 years they way overperformed that amount.

Didn't you say something like this earlier?

37 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The only real pushback I have is the idea that some 6th round linebacker would have been the missing piece for this defense and AB boned us for the whole season by passing on dudes at pick 200 something.

So, which is it, I'm kinda getting mixed messages here. Looks like a few 3rd day picks are legit stud linebackers that are viable.  

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

You said "He's not an off ball linebacker". He literally IS and then can/does kick to the EDGE in pass rushing situations.

and that pass rush is why he’ll be paid. 

 

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

So, which is it, I'm kinda getting mixed messages here. Looks like a few 3rd day picks are legit stud linebackers that are viable.  

No mixed messages, I’d have liked to have seen a LBer but it’s not a huge miss.  I’m not convinced guys like JOK, Fields, Walker, even Phillips (still 24) can’t look very solid in this scheme.  I think the UFA we brought in could possibly be decent.  As Edwards shows, it happens.  

[MWil23]

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

and that pass rush is why he’ll be paid. 

It's almost as though you can be both and have value though

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

No mixed messages, I’d have liked to have seen a LBer but it’s not a huge miss.

"LB aren't valuable, you can get those guys in the 3rd day of the draft."

"LOL. You just named 2 3rd day dudes and an UDFA."

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

 I’m not convinced guys like JOK,

Agreed

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Fields,

Agreed

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Walker,

Kind of agree. He's aging and coming off of a significant injury when his athleticism wasn't exactly his biggest selling point before it all.

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

even Phillips (still 24) can’t look very solid in this scheme.

Hahahahahahaha

10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I think the UFA we brought in could possibly be decent.  As Edwards shows, it happens.  

Let's all hope so. I'd take the UDFA over Phillips. I've seen enough. He's unbelievably stiff, has zero value in coverage or blitzing, and, contrary to the nerds who drafted him 3 years ago, can't tackle in space. At least he's also really bad at reading/diagnosing run/pass.

[NateDawg]

I liked JOK when we took him but he’s a chess piece and not a 3-down LB except in certain weekly matchups. There were times last season where he looked indescribably bad. Completely had no idea about gap control, poor reactions within the tackle box, etc. if used right, he could really help us. I’m not convinced he is a pure LB though. 

I’m not sure we have an individual linebacker who we can really trust on a weekly basis out there. That’s a problem. I don’t think we need three studs, but we do need at least one guy that the rest of that unit can look to and be directed by or a guy you know what you’re getting. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

 

1 hour ago, NateDawg said:

I’m not sure we have an individual linebacker who we can really trust on a weekly basis out there. That’s a problem. I don’t think we need three studs, but we do need at least one guy that the rest of that unit can look to and be directed by or a guy you know what you’re getting. 

this I agree with completely.

I think from a leadership perspective that dude is Walker, but he’s… fine.  JOK needs to take that next step.

[BetterCallSaul]

1 hour ago, NateDawg said:

I liked JOK when we took him but he’s a chess piece and not a 3-down LB except in certain weekly matchups. There were times last season where he looked indescribably bad. Completely had no idea about gap control, poor reactions within the tackle box, etc. if used right, he could really help us. I’m not convinced he is a pure LB though. 

I think you're both right and wrong on this. JOK is a 4-3 STAR/SAM linebacker. We are using him as a 4-2-5 WILL linebacker, where we never roll down the back side safety to provide sound gap fits. JOK, as a WILL linebacker, is being asked to cover multiple gaps defensively because we insisted on playing quarters coverage almost exclusively. This put our back side LB'er in a no-win situation constantly. He's responsible for the B-gap in the run fit, but also responsible for both edge help & cutback, if it goes to the strong side. He was being asked to do way too much. Even if we did have a roll down safety to support, JOK is a true outside linebacker. He shouldn't be playing in the box...especially at WILL.

The entirety of the run defense last year was an abomination. There's a reason why it looked like nobody knew where to fit. It's because they didn't. We were trying to fit the run with two linebackers, one of which was horribly out of position. Also, idk what our linebacker coaches were teaching. Our LB's ran into blocks with their outside arm getting pinned so often that I honestly to Christ think that's what we were teaching them to do. It was every single linebacker. And we didn't fight to get over the top of those down blocks...it's like we were locked into that fit, thinking it was where we were supposed to be. I honestly think we had the dumbest coaches in the world on the defensive side of the football. I know they're in the NFL, but I am 100% confident I could outcoach Woods.

I'm giving JOK a pass. All of the things he was amazing at in college he hasn't ever been asked to do in our system. I was praying to Christ we drafted a WILL linebacker so that he could move to SAM, but it didn't really happen. Hoping we figure out a way to keep him to the TE's/multiple receivers--where he belongs.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

4 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

I think you're both right and wrong on this. JOK is a 4-3 STAR/SAM linebacker. We are using him as a 4-2-5 WILL linebacker, where we never roll down the back side safety to provide sound gap fits. JOK, as a WILL linebacker, is being asked to cover multiple gaps defensively because we insisted on playing quarters coverage almost exclusively. This put our back side LB'er in a no-win situation constantly. He's responsible for the B-gap in the run fit, but also responsible for both edge help & cutback, if it goes to the strong side. He was being asked to do way too much. Even if we did have a roll down safety to support, JOK is a true outside linebacker. He shouldn't be playing in the box...especially at WILL.

The entirety of the run defense last year was an abomination. There's a reason why it looked like nobody knew where to fit. It's because they didn't. We were trying to fit the run with two linebackers, one of which was horribly out of position. Also, idk what our linebacker coaches were teaching. Our LB's ran into blocks with their outside arm getting pinned so often that I honestly to Christ think that's what we were teaching them to do. It was every single linebacker. And we didn't fight to get over the top of those down blocks...it's like we were locked into that fit, thinking it was where we were supposed to be. I honestly think we had the dumbest coaches in the world on the defensive side of the football. I know they're in the NFL, but I am 100% confident I could outcoach Woods.

I'm giving JOK a pass. All of the things he was amazing at in college he hasn't ever been asked to do in our system. I was praying to Christ we drafted a WILL linebacker so that he could move to SAM, but it didn't really happen. Hoping we figure out a way to keep him to the TE's/multiple receivers--where he belongs.

Personnel wise we also lacked a lot of *** up front to protect those guys.  You can’t have 295 pound 💩 defensive tackles trying to keep 220 pound linebackers clean in the run game.  Not every DT needs to be 350, but you do need a guy or two who can control the LOS when teams wanna start running the ball.  Tomlinson and Ika should at least be able to do that much.

[MWil23]

🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆

This guy gets it!

2 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said:

JOK, as a WILL linebacker, is being asked to cover multiple gaps defensively because we insisted on playing quarters coverage almost exclusively. This put our back side LB'er in a no-win situation constantly. He's responsible for the B-gap in the run fit, but also responsible for both edge help & cutback, if it goes to the strong side. He was being asked to do way too much. Even if we did have a roll down safety to support, JOK is a true outside linebacker. He shouldn't be playing in the box...especially at WILL.

The entirety of the run defense last year was an abomination. There's a reason why it looked like nobody knew where to fit. It's because they didn't. We were trying to fit the run with two linebackers, one of which was horribly out of position. Also, idk what our linebacker coaches were teaching. Our LB's ran into blocks with their outside arm getting pinned so often that I honestly to Christ think that's what we were teaching them to do. It was every single linebacker. And we didn't fight to get over the top of those down blocks...it's like we were locked into that fit, thinking it was where we were supposed to be. I honestly think we had the dumbest coaches in the world on the defensive side of the football. I know they're in the NFL, but I am 100% confident I could outcoach Woods.