Who would you rather have, Cousins vs Newton

[Anc360]

I find it really interesting how so many people here seem to have a special fury that is directed only towards Cam Newton. Half of the replies to this thread are just personal attacks on Cam Newton's character. It may not be related to race, but boy I never see these sorts of insults hurled at someone like Ben Roethlisberger, for example. 

Anyway I'd take Cam Newton without thinking twice. 

[MSURacerDT55]

You guys are seriously debating Kirk Cousins of all people? This guys is a middle of the road QB at best, he will never reach the height of what Cam did even if Cam never does it ever again. You guys are crazy, why don't you ask an actual defensive coordinator who he wouldn't want to fact, I guarantee they would all rather see Cousins. It takes much more preparation to defend Cam than Newton, you find guys like Cousins every year in every draft.

 

Also, Cam does not run every down, when I see him, I see him throwing off his back foot which is bad, if you are going to critique him critique him accurately. He runs if his progressions break down or a called read option run, that's different from just taking the snap and running... Goodness....

[MSURacerDT55]

10 hours ago, Anc360 said:

I find it really interesting how so many people here seem to have a special fury that is directed only towards Cam Newton. Half of the replies to this thread are just personal attacks on Cam Newton's character. It may not be related to race, but boy I never see these sorts of insults hurled at someone like Ben Roethlisberger, for example. 

Anyway I'd take Cam Newton without thinking twice. 

Tremendously weak to me,  even if I don't like the guy personally, I wouldn't let my dislike for a person cloud me from judging him as an actual player.

[Soko]

12 hours ago, Anc360 said:

I find it really interesting how so many people here seem to have a special fury that is directed only towards Cam Newton. Half of the replies to this thread are just personal attacks on Cam Newton's character. It may not be related to race, but boy I never see these sorts of insults hurled at someone like Ben Roethlisberger, for example. 

Anyway I'd take Cam Newton without thinking twice. 

Does Ben Roethlisbeger seem to consistently reinforce the notion that he’s a man-child? Does any QB? Johnny Manziel probably, but plenty of people didn’t like him either. 

The intangibles are important at the QB position. Cam’s 28 years old and he acts half that age on many occasions. It’s fair criticism. 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

You guys are seriously debating Kirk Cousins of all people? This guys is a middle of the road QB at best, he will never reach the height of what Cam did even if Cam never does it ever again. You guys are crazy, why don't you ask an actual defensive coordinator who he wouldn't want to fact, I guarantee they would all rather see Cousins. It takes much more preparation to defend Cam than Newton, you find guys like Cousins every year in every draft.

Can anyone form a reliable argument that doesn’t completely lean on Cam’s MVP season? 

Cam hasn’t played close to that level in any season ever. It was a fluke season for him and a bunch of the other Panthers on that roster. There is nothing that suggests that that level of success is repeatable, let alone sustainable. 

Yes, his legs make him a dual threat, that’s obvious. It makes a DC’s job harder - rushers maintaining their lanes, containing the QB, read-option plays, QB spy, etc. But that doesn’t really make him a good thrower, which I don’t believe Cam is. He isn’t an above average passer. Out of the QB position, I want a good passer first, a good decision maker/good teammate second, and a runner dead last.

Also, if you want to talk about accuracy in criticisms, I’d avoid hyperbolic statements like “a Couins can be found in every draft”. If I were using the poor Cam argument, I’d just ask which QB from 2013 or 2015 has performed as well as Cousins in 2016? Definitely none statistically. 

Hell, out of 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, and 2015, the only guys I’d definitively take over Cousins are Stafford and Ryan.

 

[MSURacerDT55]

26 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Can anyone form a reliable argument that doesn’t completely lean on Cam’s MVP season? 

Cam hasn’t played close to that level in any season ever. It was a fluke season for him and a bunch of the other Panthers on that roster. There is nothing that suggests that that level of success is repeatable, let alone sustainable. 

Yes, his legs make him a dual threat, that’s obvious. It makes a DC’s job harder - rushers maintaining their lanes, containing the QB, read-option plays, QB spy, etc. But that doesn’t really make him a good thrower, which I don’t believe Cam is. He isn’t an above average passer. Out of the QB position, I want a good passer first, a good decision maker/good teammate second, and a runner dead last.

Also, if you want to talk about accuracy in criticisms, I’d avoid hyperbolic statements like “a Couins can be found in every draft”. If I were using the poor Cam argument, I’d just ask which QB from 2013 or 2015 has performed as well as Cousins in 2016? Definitely none statistically. 

Hell, out of 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, and 2015, the only guys I’d definitively take over Cousins are Stafford and Ryan.

 

Yawn, your argument does not move me and you quite frankly lost me when you uttered the word fluke, you obviously aren't aware that nothing at this level of professionalism is a "fluke" (Hilarious). So he basically threw up a bunch of hail maries and caught them all?, that would constitute a fluke. I honestly don't even know why im wasting my time with this post, and im not even a Cam fan like that, but have you noticed how bad his OL was that year (and still is), or the fact that Kelvin Benjamin was out for the year,and a year removed from having the team's best receiver ever leave for free agency,  or the fact that they had a bunch of no names at WR catching those passes. And you know there are holes in your argument, you know that right? lol, I'm going to need you to explain IN FULL DETAIL how a guy who "Isn't an above average passer" accumulate 3,837Yds, 35Tds and a 99.4 passer rating (this should be interesting) to Ted Ginn, Corey Brown and Jerricho Cottery??? 

Teams, coaches get paid handsomely and game plan for hours and days at a time, THERE ARE NO SUCH THING AS FLUKES. Team's can eventually catch up game play wise but please don't ever utter that word because it doesn't exist in he NFL, thanks

[Soko]

41 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Yawn, your argument does not move me and you quite frankly lost me when you uttered the word fluke, you obviously aren't aware that nothing at this level of professionalism is a "fluke" (Hilarious).

Brandon Lloyd, Nick Foles, and yes, Cam Newton all beg to differ. Flukes happen all the time. 

41 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

So he basically threw up a bunch of hail maries and caught them all?, that would constitute a fluke.

No, guys can have a ‘flukey’ season. Having a great season that is surrounded by a mediocre career constitutes the word fluke. 

41 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I honestly don't even know why im wasting my time with this post, and im not even a Cam fan like that, but have you noticed how bad his OL was that year (and still is), or the fact that Kelvin Benjamin was out for the year,and a year removed from having the team's best receiver ever leave for free agency,  or the fact that they had a bunch of no names at WR catching those passes.

Did you watch that season? Other guys were having career years/overachieved, as I said. Norman had his best season. Kuechly stayed healthy. The guards had career years. The tackles had, similar to Cam, overachieved. Tre Boston looked like an NFL safety. Short had a career year. Brown and Ginn looked like good wide receivers. 

Somehow, all of that fell to pieces the season after? 

41 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

And you know there are holes in your argument, you know that right? lol, I'm going to need you to explain IN FULL DETAIL how a guy who "Isn't an above average passer" accumulate 3,837Yds, 35Tds and a 99.4 passer rating (this should be interesting) to Ted Ginn, Corey Brown and Jerricho Cottery??? 

So...you can’t form an argument outside his MVP season? You could’ve just opened with that and this would’ve been a lot simpler.

I’d also argue his MVP status had as much to do with his record as it did his actual QB play, but that’s neither here nor there.

41 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Teams, coaches get paid handsomely and game plan for hours and days at a time, THERE ARE NO SUCH THING AS FLUKES. Team's can eventually catch up game play wise but please don't ever utter that word because it doesn't exist in he NFL, thanks

Yes, there are. Getting paid or working towards something doesn’t mean there can’t be flukes. Until he plays at that level again, which he hasn’t, it’ll be a fluke. 

This has little to do with game planning. Unless you’re going to tell me that teams somehow were game planning for Newton his whole career, stopped in 2015, then started again in 2016? That obviously wasn’t the case. 

[MSURacerDT55]

2 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

Cam Newton sucks as a QB.  Him being a massive dink doesn't take away from the validity of people's points.  Also please show me ANY quarterback acting even remotely close to the frequency or quality of petty  loserdom that Cam has repeatedly shown through his entire career.   

You subtly trying to point to racism as why people hate Cam is missing the boat and just defending some horrible and childish behavior and is symptomatic of how the social education system is completely broken.  People might just mindlessly hate Cam because of his race, but that doesn't mean everyone who hates him does because of his skin color.  

And no, you can't guarantee anything.  I can guarantee all DCs think Cam sucks and would rather play him and have him hand over his 3 turnovers and 30 inaccurate passes.  

 

Cam sucks because.

1.  He can't throw accurately

2.  He can't throw with touch short

3.  He is turnover prone

4.  He can't read defenses presnap

5.  He's fooled by robber coverages and predetermines where he is going with the ball.

6.  He has a long, slow release

7.  He isn't trusted to make audibles or protection calls

Do people realize Cam is on pace for 3600 yards, 20 TDs, 22 INT.  That is Mark Sanchez territory of terrible.

 

And yes, he's a dink and a terrible leader and a spoiled man child.   And that does absolutely nothing to invalidate how he is a terrible quarterback.

K

[MSURacerDT55]

3 minutes ago, tonyto36 said:

2011:  310/517, 60%, 4051 yards, 21 TD, 17 INT.  7.8YPA
2012:  280/485, 58%, 3869 yards, 19 TD, 12 INT.  8.0 YPA
2013:  292/473, 62%, 3379 yards, 24 TD, 13 INT.  7.1YPA
2014:  262/448, 58%, 3127 yards, 18 TD, 12 INT.  7.0 YPA
2015:  296/495, 60%, 3837 yards, 35 TD, 10 INT, 7.8 YPA
2016:  270/510, 53%, 3509 yards, 19 TD, 14 INT.  6.9 YPA
2017:  332/526, 63%, 3682 yards, 20 TD, 22 INT.  7.0 YPA

Cam Newton in 2015 essentially double his career average TD count, while having a career low in interceptions, all while all of his other periphery statistics stayed roughly the same.

It was a fluke season. 

 

K, I see you have that copy and paste thing down, sweet....

[lancerman]

Tbf Cam's 2015 season does look like a Fluke all things considered. 

Hell statistically I don't even know if I'd call it that impressive of a season. 

Rodgers 2014: 341/520 (more than Cam) 65.6% (more than Cam) 4381 yards (more than Cam) 38 TD's (more than Cam) 5 INT (less than Cam) 8.4 Y/A (more than Cam)

Brady 2015: 402/622 (more than Cam) 64.4% (more than Cam) 4770 yards (more than Cam) 36 TD's (more than Cam) 7 INT (less than Cam) 7.6 Y/A (the only passing stat worse than Cam)

Ryan 2016: 373/535 (more than Cam) 69.9% (more than Cam) 4944 yards (more than Cam) 38TD's (more than Cam) 7 INT (less than Cam) 9.3 Y/A (way better than Cam) 

So statistically in passing stats the MVP before and after him and his closest contemporary his MVP year all relatively beat him in most passing stats in a year that was an anomaly for him. Granted he had rushing stats to make up the difference. But now that he's getting older and more banged up and his rushing isn't successful it's becoming a lot more of a problem that he has a much lower ceiling as a passer. 

[Danger]

As for people complaining about the Panthers OL. 

Three of four players have been solid-to-good this season, meaning at least Average.

Daryl Williams
Trai Turner
Andrew Norwell
Tyler Larsen

The only player that's legit sucked, would be Matt Kalil

[Danger]

On 11/1/2017 at 6:51 PM, MSURacerDT55 said:

K

 

On 11/1/2017 at 7:00 PM, MSURacerDT55 said:

K, I see you have that copy and paste thing down, sweet....

 

On 11/1/2017 at 10:50 AM, MSURacerDT55 said:

Yawn, your argument does not move me and you quite frankly lost me when you uttered the word fluke, you obviously aren't aware that nothing at this level of professionalism is a "fluke" (Hilarious). So he basically threw up a bunch of hail maries and caught them all?, that would constitute a fluke. I honestly don't even know why im wasting my time with this post,

If you could bring more substantiating evidence than a single statistic  from one HALF season that's very much better than the other 6 seasons of his entire career, than maybe we'd be swayed by your argument. Despite how many things are brought up that debunk your view on the matter, you leave your head and your fruit in the sand.

[MSURacerDT55]

1 minute ago, Danger said:

 

 

If you could bring more substantiating evidence than a single statistic  from one HALF season that's very much better than the other 6 seasons of his entire career, than maybe we'd be swayed by your argument. Despite how many things are brought up that debunk your view on the matter, you leave your head and your fruit in the sand.

k, thanks