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onejayhawk

Looking Ahead to Week 11

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17 hours ago, mayanfootball said:

That was a long time ago. Hali is too old and without knees now. No,he's not a DE.

CJ, RNR, Bailey and Jenkins are our listed DE's. I'd use Kpass there too. With Logan and Miller, there's material to deploy 4 man fronts more consistently than we are. The idea is simple. The math is simple. Stop the run at the LOS and then let the DB's do their thing.

Andy Reid and Bob Sutton have had years to work on getting their defense right. Instead guys are old and getting older. Injuries happen but where's the capable backups? Spent on building the offense? Where is the "change-of-pace" that's needed to combat an offense throughout a game, Mr. Sutton?

 

You still don't understand the differences between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE, and between a 3-4 OLB and a 4-3 OLB. You put Houston, Hali, or Ford at 4-3 OLB, and they're covering for almost all pass plays. Hali played DE in college and when we ran a 4-3. When we moved to a 3-4, we moved him to OLB because that was the better size/skillset fit. If you move back to a 4-3, you're moving him back to DE because he doesn't have the speed and coverage ability to play OLB there. Ford played DE in college. Jones, RNR, Bailey, and Jenkins are all too large and slow to be effective as pass rushers at 4-3 DE. They don't have the speed to get around the edge as pass rushers.

3-4 DEs have the roles, responsibilities, and sometimes the alignment of 4-3 DTs. 3-4 OLBs have the roles, responsibilities, and sometimes alignment of 4-3 DEs.

If you need proof at this, look at what the Rams did to their personnel when Phillips switched them to a 3-4. Aaron Donald, their 4-3 UT, is now playing DE, not NT. Robert Quinn, their 4-3 DE, is now playing OLB. Ogletree and Barron, who were OLBs in a 4-3, moved to ILB in a 3-4. Brockers, their NT in the 4-3, is the only one who stayed at the same listed position. Still a NT.

We would do the exact opposite. We wouldn't need 2 starting ILBs, so one would stay at ILB and 2 others would shift out to OLB. Probably Ragland inside, with KPL or Ramik and DJ having the speed to shift outside (DJ started as an OLB when we were 4-3 too, if you don't remember that.) That pushes Houston, Ford, Hali, and Kpass all down to DE so that they can rush the passer consistently. Which pushes Jones and Bailey and RNR to UT. With Logan and Miller keeping their spots on the depth chart at NT.

The one exception would be if we went 4-3 under like some of the recent Seattle and Denver teams. Then you let Houston play a Bruce Irvin or Von Miller style OLB role. With probably Bailey playing as a big DE like Derek Wolfe or Red Bryant. But at that point you're just staying in a 3-4 and putting Ford or Hali's hand in the dirt, and not actually changing anything in terms of scheme.

 

What really needs to happen is we need to stay with 3 defensive linemen even when we go to nickel. It leaves us a little weaker in coverage, but Houston, Ford, and Zombo are all competent in zone or covering most RBs in man. Currently we roll with 2 defensive linemen in nickel. We still run a 4 man front (usually Ford - Jones - Bailey - Houston), and that's the same 4 man front we would run in a 4-3, but it's a 4 man front with only 2 heavies. We need either a 4 man front that pulls one of our edge rushers off the field (instead of pulling one of our interior rushers off the field), or we need a 3 man front that has the OLBs play off the LOS. Either will work. Both have drawbacks. Neither involve a true switch to a 4-3. Just a slight change in personnel or alignment. Switching to a 4-3 does nothing if we don't change philosophy because it will leave everyone in the same roles just with different position names. Some of your positional suggestions along with switching to a 4-3 will create substantial problems in that transition.

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14 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Jones, RNR, Bailey, and Jenkins are all too large and slow to be effective as pass rushers at 4-3 DE. They don't have the speed to get around the edge as pass rushers.

You don't understand the points I was trying to make. Chiefs need to be able to play more 4 man fronts to stop the run (not 2DT's and 2OLB's). It worked great when playing Oakland 2nd. half. Then Sutton stopped doing it. So if you're saying we can't, then why?

I asked the question and nobody answers. Why don't we have the players capable of being deployed to stop the run? Instead of a chalkboard lesson, explain to me why years have gone by and still we're using old, broken down players (Hali, DJ, etc.), using players with questionable skillsets (Gaines, Sorensen, etc) and deploying 2 DT's at the LOS?

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15 minutes ago, mayanfootball said:

You don't understand the points I was trying to make. Chiefs need to be able to play more 4 man fronts to stop the run (not 2DT's and 2OLB's). It worked great when playing Oakland 2nd. half. Then Sutton stopped doing it. So if you're saying we can't, then why?

I asked the question and nobody answers. Why don't we have the players capable of being deployed to stop the run? Instead of a chalkboard lesson, explain to me why years have gone by and still we're using old, broken down players (Hali, DJ, etc.), using players with questionable skillsets (Gaines, Sorensen, etc) and deploying 2 DT's at the LOS?

He understands your points

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3 hours ago, mayanfootball said:

You don't understand the points I was trying to make. Chiefs need to be able to play more 4 man fronts to stop the run (not 2DT's and 2OLB's). It worked great when playing Oakland 2nd. half. Then Sutton stopped doing it. So if you're saying we can't, then why?

I asked the question and nobody answers. Why don't we have the players capable of being deployed to stop the run? Instead of a chalkboard lesson, explain to me why years have gone by and still we're using old, broken down players (Hali, DJ, etc.), using players with questionable skillsets (Gaines, Sorensen, etc) and deploying 2 DT's at the LOS?

We are almost always in a 4 man front. You're calling for something we're already doing. What Sutton did in Oakland was more 3 man DLs. That's the problem. What you keep asking for and the claims you're trying to make aren't solutions to the problem. You seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings in the personnel differences between a 4-3 and a 3-4, and that's why this discussion is always a pain. A 4 man front is 2 edge rushers and 2 interior players. In a 3-4 that's 2 OLBs and 2 DL. In a 4-3 that's 2 DEs and 2 DTs. Those two things are fundamentally the same. We already play 4 man fronts in nickel.

We can deploy more players that are more capable of run stopping. That's why I've suggested a few times we need to do a 3-3-5 nickel instead of a 2-4-5 nickel. We need to pull a LB off the field when we go nickel instead of pulling a DL on the field. That's what Sutton was doing for part of the Oakland game, and even a little bit of Dallas, but not consistently. He was keeping 3 big guys on the field more often. He just needs to be willing to commit to it and alter his coverage schemes if he needs to to make up the difference. A big part of that issue is he's incredibly committed to man coverage across the back end, so he tries to keep guys like Sorensen and Gaines in to help with slot WRs and RBs, and he tries to keep guys like Hali and Zombo from ever having to cover. If we did a bit more zone we could afford to give Zombo or Ford the occasional coverage responsibilities because they'd be a bit easier.

And the thing you really need to understand here, is a 4 man front is never going to be 4 players like Jones, Miller, Logan, and Bailey. You need edge rushers at that outside spot. You need players capable of threatening the edge as pass rushers, and capable of containing RBs on outside runs. Houston and Ford and even Zombo have the speed to do that. 300 lb DTs do not. That is why in a 4-3 our DEs would not be DEs.

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18 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Jones, RNR, Bailey, and Jenkins are all too large and slow to be effective as pass rushers at 4-3 DE. They don't have the speed to get around the edge as pass rushers.

This is not just wrong, but brain freeze. Jones in particular would be a force rushing on the edge. Nacho is more an under Tackle, but still a penetrater. Bailey I might give since the injury. Jenkins is no better and no worse. A DL of Kpassagnon, RNR, Bailey, Jones could get after a passer. 

Houston stays a strong side LB. Calling the dime package a four man front is just wrong.

J

Edited by onejayhawk

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18 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

This is not just wrong, but brain freeze. Jones in particular would be a force rushing on the edge. Nacho is more an under Tackle, but still a penetrater. Bailey I might give since the injury. Jenkins is no better and no worse. A DL of Kpassagnon, RNR, Bailey, Jones could get after a passer. 

Houston stays a strong side LB. Calling the dime package a four man front is just wrong.

J

No, that is a 4-man front. It just has two men standing up on the edges instead of in a 3-point stance.

At this point though our edge rush just ain't getting there, either the ball is getting out to quickly or theyre getting stopped. They're not helping the secondary out like they should be.

I think a front you suggest, Kpass-RNR-Logan-Jones, really can't be any worse then what we're already fielding anyways and in theory should be able to hold up against the run better. Although I'd keep Houston out there because he's great against the run(that knee though)

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30 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

This is not just wrong, but brain freeze. Jones in particular would be a force rushing on the edge. Nacho is more an under Tackle, but still a penetrater. Bailey I might give since the injury. Jenkins is no better and no worse. A DL of Kpassagnon, RNR, Bailey, Jones could get after a passer. 

Houston stays a strong side LB. Calling the dime package a four man front is just wrong.

J

Being fast for an interior linemen is completely different from being fast as an edge rusher. It takes a completely different level of speed and acceleration. Ford, with his speed, isn't able to beat better LTs around the edge. You think Jones can?

I have no doubt Jones could perform against LTs or RTs with a bull rush or an inside move. But that doesn't help us against boot legs or tosses or jet sweeps. Teams would exploit the crap out of that kind of lineup, especially if they had a mobile QB. Can you imagine us trying to defend against our own offense with that lineup? You have no answer to jet sweeps and option plays with a 300 lb edge rusher, even if he's fast for that 300 lbs.

We take for granted Houston's ability in contain at that LOLB spot. And Zombo's, honestly.

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A defense with Kpass and C. Jones holding run containment on the outside is terrifying,,  in a bad way 

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5 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

We can deploy more players that are more capable of run stopping. That's why I've suggested a few times we need to do a 3-3-5 nickel instead of a 2-4-5 nickel.

This is NOT what the Arrowhead Pride author (link provided by Chiefs_5627) suggested the Chiefs do to win the LOS (Which I agree with). The objective is to outweigh the OL, hit the gaps and reduce the number of double team blocks to allow our guys to win more 1 on 1 blocking.

Don't tell me Aaron Donald can move from NT to DE and we can't do similar.

Edited by mayanfootball

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I’d like to see a 3-3-5 with 2 ILB’s instead of the OLB setup.

Keep Houston on the field, Keep Ragland as a straight up ILB.  DJ/KPL can play a hybrid ILB/OLB.  We aren’t really getting anything out of the ROLB spot anyways

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9 hours ago, Chiefer said:

No, that is a 4-man front. It just has two men standing up on the edges instead of in a 3-point stance.

OK, if you insist. It's a quibble and most observers will refer to the two point rushers as LB.

 

9 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Being fast for an interior linemen is completely different from being fast as an edge rusher. It takes a completely different level of speed and acceleration. Ford, with his speed, isn't able to beat better LTs around the edge. You think Jones can?

I have no doubt Jones could perform against LTs or RTs with a bull rush or an inside move. But that doesn't help us against boot legs or tosses or jet sweeps. Teams would exploit the crap out of that kind of lineup, especially if they had a mobile QB. Can you imagine us trying to defend against our own offense with that lineup? You have no answer to jet sweeps and option plays with a 300 lb edge rusher, even if he's fast for that 300 lbs.

We take for granted Houston's ability in contain at that LOLB spot. And Zombo's, honestly.

Chris Jones is not an interior lineman. Granted he is not a speed guy like Houston, but he would actually have shorter distances in a 4-3. Plus, no more two gap assignments.

 

6 hours ago, samsel23 said:

A defense with Kpass and C. Jones holding run containment on the outside is terrifying,,  in a bad way 

Please explain. Physically, they are ideal.

J

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5 hours ago, mayanfootball said:

This is NOT what the Arrowhead Pride author (link provided by Chiefs_5627) suggested the Chiefs do to win the LOS (Which I agree with). The objective is to outweigh the OL, hit the gaps and reduce the number of double team blocks to allow our guys to win more 1 on 1 blocking.

Don't tell me Aaron Donald can move from NT to DE and we can't do similar.

Aaron Donald moved from 4-3 UT (NOT NT, those are completely different roles) to 3-4 DE. Those are the kinds of positions I'm saying are similar in role and responsibility. That's the same kind of transition as if we went to a 4-3 and moved Chris Jones from 3-4 DE to 4-3 UT.

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4 hours ago, samsel23 said:

I’d like to see a 3-3-5 with 2 ILB’s instead of the OLB setup.

Keep Houston on the field, Keep Ragland as a straight up ILB.  DJ/KPL can play a hybrid ILB/OLB.  We aren’t really getting anything out of the ROLB spot anyways

This would be okay as well. We'd lose less in coverage that way too. And as you say, we aren't getting much from our ROLBs anyway.

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31 minutes ago, onejayhawk said:

Chris Jones is not an interior lineman. Granted he is not a speed guy like Houston, but he would actually have shorter distances in a 4-3. Plus, no more two gap assignments.

 

Please explain. Physically, they are ideal.

J

I really don't like using them as a source, but PFF has him listed as "defensive interior." They grade 3-4 OLBs and 4-3 DEs in one lump, and they grade 4-3 DTs and 3-4 DEs in one lump. He was also listed as a DT in scouting reports:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/chris-jones?id=2555393

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2016cjones.php

If you want video evidence:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000846412/Chris-Jones-picks-off-tipped-Carson-Wentz-pass

He's lined up directly across from the G. He virtually always lines up somewhere inside of the B gaps (the gap between T and G.) So he's either between the T and G, across from the G, between the G and C, or (more rarely) across from the C. Just like how the linemen he's lining up across from are interior linemen on offense, he is an interior linemen on defense. Your edge rushers will normally line up across from or outside the tackles. Depends on the personnel a bit, but generally speaking, that's the case.

But Jones is absolutely not physically ideal to be a 4-3 DE. Most of your 4-3 DEs weigh about 40 pounds less and run substantially faster. Kpass is closer. He's 20 pounds lighter than Jones despite being a few inches taller, and ran .2 faster in the 40. But that's not surprising that Kpass played 4-3 DE in college. And that's also why we have Kpass at OLB now anyway.

I really don't understand how this is such a debate. 3-4 DEs and 4-3 DTs are comparable positions. Same with 4-3 DEs and 3-4 OLBs. This is well-known. Pull any scouting report and they'll talk about guys like Jones being a fit at 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. Guys like Ford will be projected as 4-3 DEs or 3-4 OLBs. And these transitions happen constantly around the league. When we went from 4-3 to 3-4, Hali moved from DE to OLB. When Julius Peppers left the Bears for Green Bay, he went from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB. The Rams moved to a 3-4 and took Aaron Donald from 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE. Those are the positions that transition well to each other. You don't see 3-4 DEs move to 4-3 DE often. You don't see 3-4 OLBs move to 4-3 OLB. It's just not normally a good schematic fit in terms of role, size, and skillset.

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28 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Aaron Donald moved from 4-3 UT (NOT NT, those are completely different roles) to 3-4 DE. Those are the kinds of positions I'm saying are similar in role and responsibility. That's the same kind of transition as if we went to a 4-3 and moved Chris Jones from 3-4 DE to 4-3 UT.

NT at Pitt in their 3-4 anyway.

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