Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, .Buzz said: No one is saying that these things that he does won't get discussed or brought up during the interview process. As far as being a legit factor in the decision process? I highly, highly doubt it. The guy is the definition of a competitor. He is beloved by his teammates and is a hard worker. As long as he is a guy that does that on the field and only on the field and knows that he can't hurt the team by his antics, why would most FO's? If you think the guy is a talent and his play can be that of a franchise QB, I don't see why anything you are bringing up would have any impact. If you are skeptical about his traits/not sure if he can be "the guy", than sure, things he's done consistently may worry you. Even then, I don't think it's detrimental to his draft stock. In fact, a lot of people love guys like Baker who are just all about football and showing that much emotion. Again though, that kind of impulsive "competitive" moment can hurt a team, even if on the field it's just a kinda funny moment that the players are laughing about. Teams are a brand, not just a group of guys playing football. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend like QBs aren't held to a different standard...but i've seen otherwise over the years. A guy like Rivers being a massive trash-talking dickhat on the field is one thing, because he's spent most of his career being pretty masterfully discrete about it in the public eye. Mayfield's displays of questionable judgment have been a lot more public/prominent. I doubt it's the sort of thing that would get Mayfield outright blacklisted on a DND list for very many scouts/teams. But it's going to come up. And that sort of minutia can be the difference in just how far up, or how much a team is going to be willing to spend to go up and get a guy. Or one of a composite set of minor differences that could help set one QB apart from another who is also very talented - like say, Mayfield the crotch grabber vs Jackson the not crotch grabber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 16 minutes ago, Tugboat said: Again though, that kind of impulsive "competitive" moment can hurt a team, even if on the field it's just a kinda funny moment that the players are laughing about. Teams are a brand, not just a group of guys playing football. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend like QBs aren't held to a different standard...but i've seen otherwise over the years. A guy like Rivers being a massive trash-talking dickhat on the field is one thing, because he's spent most of his career being pretty masterfully discrete about it in the public eye. Mayfield's displays of questionable judgment have been a lot more public/prominent. I doubt it's the sort of thing that would get Mayfield outright blacklisted on a DND list for very many scouts/teams. But it's going to come up. And that sort of minutia can be the difference in just how far up, or how much a team is going to be willing to spend to go up and get a guy. Or one of a composite set of minor differences that could help set one QB apart from another who is also very talented - like say, Mayfield the crotch grabber vs Jackson the not crotch grabber. Baker has never done something to hurt a team that I've seen in a critical moment. He has jawed prior and post game, and than up 27-3 when the game was basically over he did it. Not sure if you actually saw highlights from that game, but to start the game Baker went to shake their hands and none of them would. I also saw multiple plays, one in particular that stood out, where he got cheap shotted by guys on the Kansas team. IDK about you, but I think quite a few players would fire back. Did he need to grab his junk to do it? No. But there is trash talk just as bad if not worse than what we've seen from Baker that comes out of players mouth all the time. The camera just happens to be on Baker all the time and instead of just talking he made a physical gesture that made it obvious. Either way, I think you are reading way too much into this. But to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Baker has never done something to hurt a team that I've seen in a critical moment. He has jawed prior and post game, and than up 27-3 when the game was basically over he did it. Not sure if you actually saw highlights from that game, but to start the game Baker went to shake their hands and none of them would. I also saw multiple plays, one in particular that stood out, where he got cheap shotted by guys on the Kansas team. IDK about you, but I think quite a few players would fire back. Did he need to grab his junk to do it? No. But there is trash talk just as bad if not worse than what we've seen from Baker that comes out of players mouth all the time. The camera just happens to be on Baker all the time and instead of just talking he made a physical gesture that made it obvious. Either way, I think you are reading way too much into this. But to each their own. I saw what happened. And like i said, personally i don't care. I thought it was actually hilarious. But i'm also not as easily offended as a lot of the general public. And i'm also not staking my franchise's public image and my job on it. I'm not talking about "costing the team" like a dumb penalty at a bad time or anything. I'm talking about the bigger picture stuff. That kind of unflattering press and distraction from the QB can absolutely hurt a team. And he's got the other noted incidents as well. And part of being a franchise QB is exactly what you're getting at there - the cameras are always on you. It's the way things work, and it's why they're typically held to a very different standard of conduct than other position players. And it's where a Heisman contender like Mayfield has to recognize that the cameras are always going to be on him - yet still gets caught up in the moment and does stuff that doesn't play well in the public image anyway. I'm not saying that i care deeply about it, or that it's a dealbreaker by any means. But i hate the "hot take" that it's completely irrelevant. Stuff matters. Personal conduct of players, particularly QBs matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Tugboat said: I saw what happened. And like i said, personally i don't care. I thought it was actually hilarious. But i'm also not as easily offended as a lot of the general public. And i'm also not staking my franchise's public image and my job on it. I'm not talking about "costing the team" like a dumb penalty at a bad time or anything. I'm talking about the bigger picture stuff. That kind of unflattering press and distraction from the QB can absolutely hurt a team. And he's got the other noted incidents as well. And part of being a franchise QB is exactly what you're getting at there - the cameras are always on you. It's the way things work, and it's why they're typically held to a very different standard of conduct than other position players. And it's where a Heisman contender like Mayfield has to recognize that the cameras are always going to be on him - yet still gets caught up in the moment and does stuff that doesn't play well in the public image anyway. I'm not saying that i care deeply about it, or that it's a dealbreaker by any means. But i hate the "hot take" that it's completely irrelevant. Stuff matters. Personal conduct of players, particularly QBs matters. Again though, is anyone saying it's completely irrelevant or it doesn't matter? I think I and anyone else with this view likely just see it as a guy that is highly competitive and likes to get in peoples heads/talk trash. If a team views him as a guy with the traits to be "the guy", as I said before, there is no way they think twice about taking him because of what we've seen. So if that's the case, why are we even discussing whether this is a big deal or not? There's no way if they think talent wise that this is a franchise level QB that him talking trash has any impact on whether they draft him. As someone mentioned earlier, Rivers is one of the bigger trash talkers in the league and I have yet to see anyone really see him as someone that is a bad image for the Chargers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 17 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Mayfield's "accuracy" on deep shots 20+ yards dropping by almost 15% seems like a big swing in the wrong direction. Compared to the others (other than Josh Allen - who really hasn't done his stock any favours at all this year). Wonder how much of that is potentially DeDe not being there to adjust on those deep balls and make flatter things a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, Tugboat said: Mayfield's "accuracy" on deep shots 20+ yards dropping by almost 15% seems like a big swing in the wrong direction. Compared to the others (other than Josh Allen - who really hasn't done his stock any favours at all this year). Wonder how much of that is potentially DeDe not being there to adjust on those deep balls and make flatter things a bit? Baker is the middle one in here as you can see. Thought you/everyone would be interested in all of this info on the top 3 (at least imo the top 3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 The rest of the crop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, .Buzz said: Again though, is anyone saying it's completely irrelevant or it doesn't matter? I think I and anyone else with this view likely just see it as a guy that is highly competitive and likes to get in peoples heads/talk trash. If a team views him as a guy with the traits to be "the guy", as I said before, there is no way they think twice about taking him because of what we've seen. So if that's the case, why are we even discussing whether this is a big deal or not? There's no way if they think talent wise that this is a franchise level QB that him talking trash has any impact on whether they draft him. As someone mentioned earlier, Rivers is one of the bigger trash talkers in the league and I have yet to see anyone really see him as someone that is a bad image for the Chargers. Like i said, Rivers has always been discrete about his trash talking. You hear it come up, more so late in his career now...but he's always maintained a pretty "clean cut" public image on the whole. There's a big difference between trash talking on the field, which is pretty irrelevant as long as it's not negatively impacting their focus or anything...vs Mayfield's crotch grab. The latter is bad PR fodder, the sort of thing that's going to get plastered across social media and highlights and all that stuff wearing your brand logo. The former is generally confined to the field and doesn't make for much of a snappy little twitter clip or whatever. NFL content producers are pretty darn good on the whole, when it comes to keeping their finger on the mute button for that stuff. That's why it's different. You're just looking at it as a fan saying, "he's just a fiery competitor". And i'm suggesting that when your job is to run a professional organization...it's generally not looked on all that positively PR-wise to have your star employee running around grabbing his crotch in primetime TV. Unless that professional organization is the WWE maybe. You're saying that nobody is saying it's "completely irrelevant", but then you're brushing it aside as being completely irrelevant because, "oh boys will be boys, that's just a competitive kid out there. nbd". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Baker is the middle one in here as you can see. Thought you/everyone would be interested in all of this info on the top 3 (at least imo the top 3). Ahhh. Yeah. Crap. It took me to not the most recent updated one for some reason. I see it now. Moving back in the right direction at least. Though raises the bigger question of how reliable and projectable this stuff is when it can move like that in just a pair of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Tugboat said: Like i said, Rivers has always been discrete about his trash talking. You hear it come up, more so late in his career now...but he's always maintained a pretty "clean cut" public image on the whole. There's a big difference between trash talking on the field, which is pretty irrelevant as long as it's not negatively impacting their focus or anything...vs Mayfield's crotch grab. The latter is bad PR fodder, the sort of thing that's going to get plastered across social media and highlights and all that stuff wearing your brand logo. The former is generally confined to the field and doesn't make for much of a snappy little twitter clip or whatever. NFL content producers are pretty darn good on the whole, when it comes to keeping their finger on the mute button for that stuff. That's why it's different. You're just looking at it as a fan saying, "he's just a fiery competitor". And i'm suggesting that when your job is to run a professional organization...it's generally not looked on all that positively PR-wise to have your star employee running around grabbing his crotch in primetime TV. Unless that professional organization is the WWE maybe. You're saying that nobody is saying it's "completely irrelevant", but then you're brushing it aside as being completely irrelevant because, "oh boys will be boys, that's just a competitive kid out there. nbd". Except I'm not "brushing it aside", I'm saying if a team views his talents as being that of a franchise QB than they will indeed do just that and take them. They aren't going to pass on a guy that they think can be their QB for the next decade because of a freaking crotch grab/trash talking QB that is beloved by his teammates/coaches. Again, I think you are taking this crotch grab things way out of proportion. I guess we'll see what happens when draft season rolls around. No point in going back and forth anymore, clearly we disagree here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Buzz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, .Buzz said: Except I'm not "brushing it aside", I'm saying if a team views his talents as being that of a franchise QB than they will indeed do just that and take them. They aren't going to pass on a guy that they think can be their QB for the next decade because of a freaking crotch grab/trash talking QB that is beloved by his teammates/coaches. Again, I think you are taking this crotch grab things way out of proportion. I guess we'll see what happens when draft season rolls around. No point in going back and forth anymore, clearly we disagree here. One final thing here: If a guy has off-field issues/scary injury history that's one thing. That's a big red flag and the team will do it's due diligence on if they think it's a long-term issues or not. I have literally never heard of a guy being passed on/not taken because of some physical gesture in a game, especially when talking about a 1st round prospect/potential franchise QB. If he has other issues that pop up, that's one thing. But as far as trash talking/one physical gesture in the heat of the moment of a game after being on the other end of multiple cheap shots and poor sportsmanship right off the bat from the opposing team, there is absolutely no way that this makes a team pass. That doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean that this is a non-factor and it's not brought up. I'm sure scouts/people with teams will ask him about it and tell him in the NFL that you have to be smarter, but this isn't something that they are going into a room asking, "Is this really a guy we can afford to take because of how much **** he talks on the field?" No, no way I will believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, .Buzz said: The rest of the crop. The Rudolph take is an interesting one to me. Calls it "good touch" there, but for the most part to me...it just looks more like an overall inability to drive the ball. "Average" accuracy numbers statistically are probably still even flattering to his actual ball placement. Really not into him. Didn't like hearing that it sounds like our staff might be. Falk is still the guy i'd say has great "touch" (and placement) on most of his throws (short and intermediate at least). But the limitations are hard to overlook, and the deep accuracy is definitely concerning. And he's looked almost...worn out? to me as this year as gone on. Rudolph is definitely a better overall athlete, but i still like Falk over Rudolph as a mid-round developmental backup/game manager project type. I like the accuracy and arm better as a short/intermediate game manager type, and i've seen more evidence of reading defenses competently there. Though neither is really looking like an answer for us. Save for bringing in a proven Veteran starter and being able to afford some tinkering around with the backup spot. In which case, that's probably the market i'd put us in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, .Buzz said: One final thing here: If a guy has off-field issues/scary injury history that's one thing. That's a big red flag and the team will do it's due diligence on if they think it's a long-term issues or not. I have literally never heard of a guy being passed on/not taken because of some physical gesture in a game, especially when talking about a 1st round prospect/potential franchise QB. If he has other issues that pop up, that's one thing. But as far as trash talking/one physical gesture in the heat of the moment of a game after being on the other end of multiple cheap shots and poor sportsmanship right off the bat from the opposing team, there is absolutely no way that this makes a team pass. That doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean that this is a non-factor and it's not brought up. I'm sure scouts/people with teams will ask him about it and tell him in the NFL that you have to be smarter, but this isn't something that they are going into a room asking, "Is this really a guy we can afford to take because of how much **** he talks on the field?" No, no way I will believe that. I just think it's not about the trash talking and competitiveness. I'm all for that, and i think almost everyone is totally fine with that. It's the sort of fire most of the great QBs have. It's about the potential pattern of sort of impulsive things he's done publicly. This is at least strike 3 on those things for Mayfield. From the video of him drunkenly being arrested, to flag planting gate, to crotch grabbing. Individually, they're all just sorta funny things that are easy to laugh off and say, "don't do that again". And i doubt he'll do any of those things again. But it opens the door to wondering...just what might this guy do next, "in the heat of the moment"? Maybe nothing. Maybe something worse. It opens the door to wondering though, and i think it's silly to deny that. It's something that can matter a lot more than other silly evaluation criteria that he'll be put through in the coming months. Like how many bench reps he does or how high he jumps, or what sort of pet he prefers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlash Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 9 hours ago, Tugboat said: From the video of him drunkenly being arrested, to flag planting gate, to crotch grabbing. Individually, they're all just sorta funny things But I think more importantly, they're all sorta harmless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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