Do you know enough to give up on Deshone Kizer?

[Iamcanadian]

H..mmm, where are all the wins people were predicting when we reached the weakest part of our schedule with a maturing Kizer. He had Gordon and Coleman today and completed only 46.9% of his passes. How bad does he have to play, before we quit hearing about his growth. He is not a rookie anymore, he should be showing substantial improvement with his added experience and a far better receiving corp, yet it still goes backwards.

He is a complete joke as a starting NFL QB. If he was a top 5 pick, I would agree that perhaps he can reach the ceiling predicted for him in another season, but as a second round QB, he only had around a 6% chance for success, so he has reached his ceiling according to NFL statistics and there is absolutely zero reason to believe he can get much better.

Tthat is why 31 teams, with far better talent appraisers and scouting departments, all passed on him, after he was exposed in the post season before the draft. Only the Browns with their incompetent FO, HC and scouting department , thought they knew better than everybody else, that he could succeed and some of us want to keep these guys so they can do more damage???

[Thomas5737]

13 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

H..mmm, where are all the wins people were predicting when we reached the weakest part of our schedule with a maturing Kizer. He had Gordon and Coleman today and completed only 46.9% of his passes. How bad does he have to play, before we quit hearing about his growth. He is not a rookie anymore, he should be showing substantial improvement with his added experience and a far better receiving corp, yet it still goes backwards.

He is a complete joke as a starting NFL QB. If he was a top 5 pick, I would agree that perhaps he can reach the ceiling predicted for him in another season, but as a second round QB, he only had around a 6% chance for success, so he has reached his ceiling according to NFL statistics and there is absolutely zero reason to believe he can get much better.

Tthat is why 31 teams, with far better talent appraisers and scouting departments, all passed on him, after he was exposed in the post season before the draft. Only the Browns with their incompetent FO, HC and scouting department , thought they knew better than everybody else, that he could succeed and some of us want to keep these guys so they can do more damage???

So is this his sophomore season now?

So Russell Wilson isn't any good? Derek Carr? Everyone passed on those guys too.

So after 2 drafts/free agency you are certain the FO is the worst in the league? We have positions of need, including the most important position but we are pretty early on in the rebuilding process. We are behind where we should be in the win column but I think the talent we've got is ahead of the win column.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

Well, he had Gordon and Coleman today = 46.9% completion rate. How much evidence do you need before believing what you see and not day dreaming???

I'm sorry, just so angry at the Browns today that I just took it out on you!

No worries, I posted that a couple days before the game as a hypothetical, so you just made yourself look more like a horse's arse than anything else really.

Also, for future reference, if you're sorry for how a part of the post that you are typing is coming off, you don't have to just apologize before posting it anyway, you can actually just rephrase it before hitting submit.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

4 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

So is this his sophomore season now?

So Russell Wilson isn't any good? Derek Carr? Everyone passed on those guys too.

So after 2 drafts/free agency you are certain the FO is the worst in the league? We have positions of need, including the most important position but we are pretty early on in the rebuilding process. We are behind where we should be in the win column but I think the talent we've got is ahead of the win column.

You're wasting your time bud.

[Aztec Hammer]

My problem with Kizer from the start is that I didn't even think he merited the 52nd pick in the draft. In my opinion, he was a complete tools projection, and even his tools were being overstated because of his great size. His arm is made out to be a cannon but I must be missing it because I honestly don't see it. Also he got tagged with the Cam "big guy that can run" label but he's not even close athletically. He lost in college, was a 61% passer, got benched and had a bit of awkwardness with the coach (who is a ****). Then made some suspect comment about being a hybrid of Tom Brady and Cam Newton.

All of that shaped my viewpoint as to not being sold on him in the pros to begin with. He shouldn't have ever started. Though I'm glad he did because he's got us the number one pick. He was a developmental prospect at best but his prototype size and being played from day one has kind of changed the narrative to one of expectation, that he is a 'collosal bust'. He's only a bust because we've forced it on him. If he was the 52nd pick that came in midway through the season, we wouldn't be calling him a bust. We'd instead simply be saying he's a developmental guy who isn't ready. We're making out a bit like he's a number one pick that has let us down and flopped hard.

We can still make the most out of the situation I think. Let him play it out. Grab the number one pick. Then stash Kizer away on the bench and let the man quietly either develop or not.

[Kathouse Sticks]

5 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

So is this his sophomore season now?

So Russell Wilson isn't any good? Derek Carr? Everyone passed on those guys too.

So after 2 drafts/free agency you are certain the FO is the worst in the league? We have positions of need, including the most important position but we are pretty early on in the rebuilding process. We are behind where we should be in the win column but I think the talent we've got is ahead of the win column.

Can you explain this, because I don't quite follow the logic.  So, you're saying we're the best 0-12 team in the league? What?  So, if we have all this talent that is ahead of our win column, why do we not have more wins?  Parcells says you are what your record says we are.  So, I'd say we are an 0-12 team with a 50% accurate QB.  You are not going to win in the NFL completing 50% of your passes.  You're not.  How Chris Tabor keeps his job is beyond me.  Yesterday I saw a total team effort.  Terrible defense, terrible special teams play, and terrible offense.  Hue may have to go. If he goes, he goes.  I would just say the reason he goes cannot be based on this roster he has been given to try and win games.  

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

Can you explain this, because I don't quite follow the logic.  So, you're saying we're the best 0-12 team in the league? What?  So, if we have all this talent that is ahead of our win column, why do we not have more wins?  Parcells says you are what your record says we are.  So, I'd say we are an 0-12 team with a 50% accurate QB.  You are not going to win in the NFL completing 50% of your passes.  You're not.  How Chris Tabor keeps his job is beyond me.  Yesterday I saw a total team effort.  Terrible defense, terrible special teams play, and terrible offense.  Hue may have to go. If he goes, he goes.  I would just say the reason he goes cannot be based on this roster he has been given to try and win games.  

It's pretty simple really, this roster overall has the talent to win some games, but right now 1-2 postions (qb and WR) have held us back.

[Kathouse Sticks]

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It's pretty simple really, this roster overall has the talent to win some games, but right now 1-2 postions (qb and WR) have held us back.

Sure.  I think it is that, and a combination of other factors. Man, I want our special teams to be SPECIAL again, and help us win games, not lose them.  I think we could really use a great play-making safety.  Is that kid from Alabama going to be there with our second first-round pick?  Sign me up.  I hear he can play S or CB.  But most of all, I'm sorry, but we do need better QB play, and I don't think the answer is on the roster.

[MSURacerDT55]

6 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

H..mmm, where are all the wins people were predicting when we reached the weakest part of our schedule with a maturing Kizer. He had Gordon and Coleman today and completed only 46.9% of his passes. How bad does he have to play, before we quit hearing about his growth. He is not a rookie anymore, he should be showing substantial improvement with his added experience and a far better receiving corp, yet it still goes backwards

Some much to cover in this post, first, it apparently isn't obvious that people progress at different rates. Second, he did fairly well given the fact that the Chargers tried to disguise coverages to try to throw him off. Third, apparently you don't realize that we do not have a dink and dunk offense which you can accumulate a high completion percentage. You have this cookie cutter approach and there are so many other factors to a QB's success than what is on "paper". People don't realize that we run a pretty complicated offense, and also we have to take what the defense gives us.

 

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Some much to cover in this post, first, it apparently isn't obvious that people progress at different rates. Second, he did fairly well given the fact that the Chargers tried to disguise coverages to try to throw him off. Third, apparently you don't realize that we do not have a dink and dunk offense which you can accumulate a high completion percentage. You have this cookie cutter approach and there are so many other factors to a QB's success than what is on "paper". People don't realize that we run a pretty complicated offense, and also we have to take what the defense gives us.

 

 

Agree about the offense and completion percentage for sure, Kizer is out there taking shots almost every set of downs it seems. 

If he starts hitting on more of those, we're in business. Big "if", yada yada, I know.

It's probably dumb to even consider, but Kizer may improve his timing with these receivers even after working with them an entire couple of weeks already. Crazy right?!?

[MSURacerDT55]

36 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

Man, I want our special teams to be SPECIAL again, and help us win games, not lose them

Man, you hit the nail on the head with that one. I long for the days when Josh Cribbs singlehandedly kept us in the game with great returns, and tackles, also Colquitt has been complete trash, I wouldn't mind getting a guy like JK Scott and a new ST coach, Tabor lost his fast ball, we really used to have a solid ST group, now its just an opportunity for the other team.

[MSURacerDT55]

9 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Agree about the offense and completion percentage for sure, Kizer is out there taking shots almost every set of downs it seems. 

If he starts hitting on more of those, we're in business. Big "if", yada yada, I know.

It's probably dumb to even consider, but Kizer may improve his timing with these receivers even after working with them an entire couple of weeks already. Crazy right?!?

And the thing is, I'm definitely not letting Kizer off the hook because in reality his over throws could have been the difference in the game, but I also know the other factors. Teams are basically making Kizer beat them and be mistake free which is damn near impossible for a rookie, especially when they disguise coverages. I see the improvement, he has been a lot more decisive and accurate when he's locked in, when he isn't that's where you get the over throws.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

9 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

And the thing is, I'm definitely not letting Kizer off the hook because in reality his over throws could have been the difference in the game, but I also know the other factors. Teams are basically making Kizer beat them and be mistake free which is damn near impossible for a rookie, especially when they disguise coverages. I see the improvement, he has been a lot more decisive and accurate when he's locked in, when he isn't that's where you get the over throws.

He doesn't have the deer in headlights look any longer, no doubt, but he's missing way to many throws.

He needs to learn to throw it up and let a player like Gordon make a play (within reason).

Hue asked way too much of him yesterday though imo.

[MSURacerDT55]

3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

He doesn't have the deer in headlights look any longer, no doubt, but he's missing way to many throws.

He needs to learn to throw it up and let a player like Gordon make a play (within reason).

Hue asked way too much of him yesterday though imo.

You think???...lol. Man, judging from the game plan, Hue basically was like, "here son go win us the ballgame". Also Kizer's flaw is that he tries to be too perfect on passes, its almost like he made it up in his mind that he is going to be pinpoint on every throw and that is not practical. You're right, sometimes he just needs to throw it up with a little air and let these guys go get it and sometimes you purposely underthrow it. Kizer just needs to relax and breathe

 

The silver lining of what Kizer is going through is that unlike other rookies, he isn't running a dummed down offense, he's taking the whole buffet to the face. When he does get it, its going to be a thing of beauty

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

8 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

You think???...lol. Man, judging from the game plan, Hue basically was like, "here son go win us the ballgame". Also Kizer's flaw is that he tries to be too perfect on passes, its almost like he made it up in his mind that he is going to be pinpoint on every throw and that is not practical. You're right, sometimes he just needs to throw it up with a little air and let these guys go get it and sometimes you purposely underthrow it. Kizer just needs to relax and breathe

 

The silver lining of what Kizer is going through is that unlike other rookies, he isn't running a dummed down offense, he's taking the whole buffet to the face. When he does get it, its going to be a thing of beauty

I agree with everything you're saying, I'm just not sure what I should think of those facts.

Is Hue's inability to dumb things down for a rookie and make life easier going to help him year 2,3, etc or is he just incapable of adjusting his scheme to talent?  Or neither?

I want to like Hue and hate the constant turnover.  I also realize he's been given very little to work with.  That said, he's not doing much with what little he has been given.