State of the Steelers

[3rivers]

15 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Golden shouldn’t be back. By all reports Herbig has improved, and Moon and the others are fine as a 4th edge. At most you stay in touch with Golden in case someone gets injured. In reality he wasn’t that great last year, he just ate up snaps to keep guys healthy. 

but Herbig is still unproven vs starters.  Herbig  has potential , a vet has proven resume. 

Get both, make sure Edge  is capable if injuries happen

or just outscore the other team by games end. I tend to forget this part of the equation due to the last 5+  years of putrid offence

[warfelg]

6 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

but Herbig is still unproven vs starters. 

If that’s your level of requirement the. How the heck would he ever prove himself?

[Chieferific]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I disagree that Chinn would have been better. He was really good his rookie year but has been declining some the last few years. Elliot wasn't great in Baltimore at first because they were trying to use him as a deep safety, then once he started to get used as a box safety things got better.

I don't get the Elliott love. I think he will be just "ok" and a forgotten player. I like Chinn because he is that big physical force that can blow up plays. 

[Blitzburgh]

54 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

I don't get the Elliott love. I think he will be just "ok" and a forgotten player. I like Chinn because he is that big physical force that can blow up plays. 

Bc you can’t get much worse than last year.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, Chieferific said:

I don't get the Elliott love. I think he will be just "ok" and a forgotten player. I like Chinn because he is that big physical force that can blow up plays. 

Using the word "love" takes it to a connotation that no one is applying. 

Chinn is an excellent run defender and like you said a big physical force. But his ball skills and coverage has been exposed. He's got tight hips, doesn't open well, isn't super quick. He's a LB pretending to be a S. Elliott brings similar box skills while not being a minus against the pass. In fact I liken Elliott to a plus Terrell Edmunds. He's a guy who you won't notice as much but there's nothing wrong with that because it likely means he's doing his job.

And not that PFF is the end all be all but:
Chinn:

2023 - 57.7

2022 - 54.9

2021 - 59.0

Elliott:

2023 - 72.6

2022 - 66.5

2021 - 65.6

2020 - 66.6

2019 - 69.7

Elliott has been consistently better.

Heck, now I've convinced myself they were going after both at the same time, Chinn wanted no part of competition/role player, and left over that. And we would have likely seen Kazee cut.

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, Blitzburgh said:

Bc you can’t get much worse than last year.

Using the PFF metric again, Chinn would have actually been worse. LOL.

Chinn - 57.7

Kazee - 60.4

Neal - 59.6

Also can't make this up. Literally Chinn's big year came playing ROLB according to PFR's snap tracking. 

More and more you look at it Elliott looks more like the well rounded S that we've been looking for to complement Minkah, where Chinn is strictly a box safety.

Edited June 7 by warfelg

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

Using the word "love" takes it to a connotation that no one is applying. 

Chinn is an excellent run defender and like you said a big physical force. But his ball skills and coverage has been exposed. He's got tight hips, doesn't open well, isn't super quick. He's a LB pretending to be a S. Elliott brings similar box skills while not being a minus against the pass. In fact I liken Elliott to a plus Terrell Edmunds. He's a guy who you won't notice as much but there's nothing wrong with that because it likely means he's doing his job.

And not that PFF is the end all be all but:
Chinn:

2023 - 57.7

2022 - 54.9

2021 - 59.0

Elliott:

2023 - 72.6

2022 - 66.5

2021 - 65.6

2020 - 66.6

2019 - 69.7

Elliott has been consistently better.

Heck, now I've convinced myself they were going after both at the same time, Chinn wanted no part of competition/role player, and left over that. And we would have likely seen Kazee cut.

Can we not focus on one word (love) and over analyze it?  No one says, "I don't get all the Elliott like". As for the Stats, the Panthers were dead last in Sacks last year. Miami was 3rd. This is not an equal comparison as it relates the coverage stats. In 2021 when the Panthers ranked in the middle of the league, his grade was 71.4.  I like what his skill set brings to the table. I understand that comes with sacrifices in coverage. I'll believe the effectiveness of Elliott when I see it. There's no point arguing about something that hasn't happened yet. I guess we'll see. 

[Chieferific]

24 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Using the PFF metric again, Chinn would have actually been worse. LOL.

Chinn - 57.7

Kazee - 60.4

Neal - 59.6

Also can't make this up. Literally Chinn's big year came playing ROLB according to PFR's snap tracking. 

More and more you look at it Elliott looks more like the well rounded S that we've been looking for to complement Minkah, where Chinn is strictly a box safety.

Yes. 

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

If that’s your level of requirement the. How the heck would he ever prove himself?

he gets his chances but also have a vet that is willing to share snaps - not easy to find one but last year they had Golden .   Herbig could break out, all for that happening as he has non stop effort and is what the team needs. 

 

35 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Using the PFF metric again, Chinn would have actually been worse. LOL.

Chinn - 57.7

Kazee - 60.4

Neal - 59.6

Also can't make this up. Literally Chinn's big year came playing ROLB according to PFR's snap tracking. 

More and more you look at it Elliott looks more like the well rounded S that we've been looking for to complement Minkah, where Chinn is strictly a box safety.

how much do you agree with PFF though?  It's a decent approximation , but thats it for me.  Not defending Chinn vs our players, but just more the PFF rankings 

[warfelg]

24 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Can we not focus on one word (love) and over analyze it?  No one says, "I don't get all the Elliott like".

No, because this is half the reason disagreements happen. People are painted into an opinion they don't really have because of words others choose to describe it. Frankly it's kinda tiring.

Quote

As for the Stats, the Panthers were dead last in Sacks last year. Miami was 3rd. This is not an equal comparison as it relates the coverage stats. In 2021 when the Panthers ranked in the middle of the league, his grade was 71.4.

Huh? I just posted what his PFF grades were and it wasn't a 71. His overall grade in 2021 was a 59, lower than our combo of safeties last year.

Quote

  I like what his skill set brings to the table. I understand that comes with sacrifices in coverage. I'll believe the effectiveness of Elliott when I see it. There's no point arguing about something that hasn't happened yet. I guess we'll see. 

I believe, like I said, that this wasn't a go after Elliott after whiffing on Chinn. Chinn is incredibly limited and one thing we've heard from players over and over this year is they are all saying you better be able to do multiple things. I believe the likely case is that Chinn would have been added and Kazee cut because that's where the difference is. Or even we would not have drafted Payton Wilson TBH.

Also earlier you brought up about the lack of sacks in Carolina. In 2022 DeShon Elliott was on the Lions, who had only 5 more sacks than Carolina that year, blitzed more to get that, and in most measurable ways Elliott was better than Chinn still.

23 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Yes. 

As much as you are lacking to see the 'love' for Elliott - I don't get this remiss over not getting Chinn. Very limited safety who really only gives you one thing and does not really help in Minkah being Minkah.

I'm willing to bet that this ends up one of those moves best not made.

 

Additionally here's his exact quote:
"I can't remember if it was a multi-year deal, but I did get another offer. I think Pittsburgh was probably a little bit more money."

Basically - that tells me nothing. What's he consider a little bit more? The guarantee? The overall? The AAV? He also didn't definitively say it was more years.

Also, according to Steelers Depot here's been his break down:

2,951 snaps over 4 seasons

1,183 snaps in the box

856 snaps in the slot

576 snaps at free safety

244 snaps at DL

2024 PFF grades:

57.7 overall

68 against the run

58.4 as a pass rusher

51.6 in coverage

Just some counter points:

Elliott has played 3,174 snaps, last year has a 72.6 overall grade while rating 87.3 against the run (20 points higher!).

10 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

how much do you agree with PFF though?  It's a decent approximation , but thats it for me.  Not defending Chinn vs our players, but just more the PFF rankings 

I'm somewhere in the middle on them. I think for a quick comparison tool like this it's easy. Like for me to quick look at this and see Elliott 15 points higher than Chinn in overall, and 20 points (almost) against the run higher, it tells me that Elliott is better. Because in a way counting stats can skew these things. Like Chinn has played much more box safety than Elliott over the course of his career and safeties playing in space tend to have less total tackles, higher depth of target averages, higher passer ratings against because of the nature of covering deep and for others mistakes. But the things is when you look at tape Elliott is a guy who can play off ball who gets better as he goes to the line. Chinn is a guy who is ok in the box and gets worse as he goes back. Likely Chinn is in Washington because he was told he would be used most as a WILL (his best position) where here we wanted him to be a more true flex safety.

[Chieferific]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

No, because this is half the reason disagreements happen. People are painted into an opinion they don't really have because of words others choose to describe it. Frankly it's kinda tiring.

Wow. There are members that have expressed pleasure with the Elliot signing. Using the term "love" in a commonly used phrase wasn't meant to paint the wrong picture. Try not being so sensitive and focusing on semantics.

Huh? I just posted what his PFF grades were and it wasn't a 71. His overall grade in 2021 was a 59, lower than our combo of safeties last year.

Jeremy Chinn | Washington Commanders S | NFL and PFF stats

3rd in Solo tackles (91) and 29th in receptions allowed (29). Not bad. 

I believe, like I said, that this wasn't a go after Elliott after whiffing on Chinn. Chinn is incredibly limited and one thing we've heard from players over and over this year is they are all saying you better be able to do multiple things. I believe the likely case is that Chinn would have been added and Kazee cut because that's where the difference is. Or even we would not have drafted Payton Wilson TBH.

Also earlier you brought up about the lack of sacks in Carolina. In 2022 DeShon Elliott was on the Lions, who had only 5 more sacks than Carolina that year, blitzed more to get that, and in most measurable ways Elliott was better than Chinn still.

As much as you are lacking to see the 'love' for Elliott - I don't get this remiss over not getting Chinn. Very limited safety who really only gives you one thing and does not really help in Minkah being Minkah.

I'm willing to bet that this ends up one of those moves best not made.

Additionally here's his exact quote:
"I can't remember if it was a multi-year deal, but I did get another offer. I think Pittsburgh was probably a little bit more money."

Basically - that tells me nothing. What's he consider a little bit more? The guarantee? The overall? The AAV? He also didn't definitively say it was more years.

Also, according to Steelers Depot here's been his break down:

2,951 snaps over 4 seasons

1,183 snaps in the box

856 snaps in the slot

576 snaps at free safety

244 snaps at DL

2024 PFF grades:

57.7 overall

68 against the run

58.4 as a pass rusher

51.6 in coverage

Just some counter points:

Elliott has played 3,174 snaps, last year has a 72.6 overall grade while rating 87.3 against the run (20 points higher!).

I'm somewhere in the middle on them. I think for a quick comparison tool like this it's easy. Like for me to quick look at this and see Elliott 15 points higher than Chinn in overall, and 20 points (almost) against the run higher, it tells me that Elliott is better. Because in a way counting stats can skew these things. Like Chinn has played much more box safety than Elliott over the course of his career and safeties playing in space tend to have less total tackles, higher depth of target averages, higher passer ratings against because of the nature of covering deep and for others mistakes. But the things is when you look at tape Elliott is a guy who can play off ball who gets better as he goes to the line. Chinn is a guy who is ok in the box and gets worse as he goes back. Likely Chinn is in Washington because he was told he would be used most as a WILL (his best position) where here we wanted him to be a more true flex safety.

The Steelers apparently valued that Hybrid/Joker role that Chinn has shown to capable of doing. So much so, they tried to sign him before they signed Elliott. I like it too. It's not for everyone and that's fine. 

[warfelg]

10 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Wow. There are members that have expressed pleasure with the Elliot signing. Using the term "love" in a commonly used phrase wasn't meant to paint the wrong picture. Try not being so sensitive and focusing on semantics.

🙄

So now it makes me sensitive because povs get twisted. How about not being so sensitive to call it love when people liked the signing because he’s an upgrade over what we had. 

11 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

Jeremy Chinn | Washington Commanders S | NFL and PFF stats

3rd in Solo tackles (91) and 29th in receptions allowed (29). Not bad.

Counting stats. Wow. He was also low on coverage snaps so that receptions allowed needs to come with a caveat. Not only that for 2021. How about 2022 and 2023 where he clearly declined. FWIW 2021 is when he was playing LB. 
 

14 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

The Steelers apparently valued that Hybrid/Joker role that Chinn has shown to capable of doing. So much so, they tried to sign him before they signed Elliott. I like it too. It's not for everyone and that's fine. 

So there proof that Elliot was a pivot after missing on Chinn?

[Chieferific]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

🙄

So now it makes me sensitive because povs get twisted. How about not being so sensitive to call it love when people liked the signing because he’s an upgrade over what we had. 

Counting stats. Wow. He was also low on coverage snaps so that receptions allowed needs to come with a caveat. Not only that for 2021. How about 2022 and 2023 where he clearly declined. FWIW 2021 is when he was playing LB. 
 

So there proof that Elliot was a pivot after missing on Chinn?

I will be sure to never use idioms again. You were wrong about his PFF grade in 2021. The stats were used to further show the inaccuracy of your statement. Elliott was signed right after Chinn's declination (next day?). Proof of a pivot? Maybe not. But it seems to be either a pivot or they wanted to sign both because neither could completely provide what they wanted.   

[3rivers]

49 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I'm somewhere in the middle on them

same here

not sure if it's   PFF or the fact if a given player is in an improper scheme/role ,  which can happen to event he best FS in the league.  

Is the plan to have Minkah be his usual FS this season?

[warfelg]

I had a much longer response written @Chieferific but I guess you’re right. Because of an honest mistake of putting his 2020 rather than 2021 grade my entire point is invalid.