The STL Cardinals Thread - Welcome to STL JJ!

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Katie Woo reports we're planning to hang onto Tyler O'Neill per her sources, unless they are 'blown away' by an offer...

😂😂

If this is the case, I owe @CWood21 an apology, as the FO legit believes he's going to rebuild some value. Call me skeptical on this, but it appears to be the plan.

I mean, you can sell him for peanuts now or you can sell him for peanuts in the offseason.  Or if he's awful, and he's non-tendered.

[MOSteelers56]

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, you can sell him for peanuts now or you can sell him for peanuts in the offseason.  Or if he's awful, and he's non-tendered.

With this choices, you keep him. At least there’s a chance he catches fire and returns something in the off-season. Not likely, but ultimately he’s only on the roster, at most, until the end of this season. 

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

With this choices, you keep him. At least there’s a chance he catches fire and returns something in the off-season. Not likely, but ultimately he’s only on the roster, at most, until the end of this season. 

This.  There's legitimately ZERO reason to move him right now.  He's done absolutely nothing this year.  You'd probably get a low-leveled lottery and some AAAA organizational guy at most.  If he plays well down the stretch, some team is gonna gamble on him that the 5 WAR player wasn't an aberration.

[kgarrett12486]

14 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, you can sell him for peanuts now or you can sell him for peanuts in the offseason.  Or if he's awful, and he's non-tendered.

Basically. I just think there are less options for teams at the trade deadline and thus you might be able to extract a little bit more vs. the off-season. Regardless, we're not getting much either way at this point. If O'Neill goes on a tear over the next 2 months, maybe he does intrigue a team to take a chance on him. I'm not banking on this happening though. I'm more worried the back problems are gonna flare up again and then his value is totally shot. He's probably the non-tender candidate at that point.

My real fear though, and Katie Woo's interview really has me sweating now, is that the FO still views him as part of the 2024 starting outfield mix.

Edited July 26, 2023 by kgarrett12486

[kgarrett12486]

Quote

The Cardinals are exploring a multi-year contract extension with closer Jordan Hicks, reports Katie Woo of the Athletic. Woo suggests there’s a good chance a deal can be finalized within the next day.

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I think he's one of our more valuable trade assets. On the other hand, he looks to have figured it out this season and has been one of the filthiest closers over the last (3) months. 

Quote

To be clear, the dialogue with Hicks’ camp is not a sign that St. Louis is walking back its forthcoming sell off. Woo reiterates that the Cards plan to trade Jordan Montgomery and Jack Flaherty, as ESPN’s Jeff Passan wrote this morning. The Cardinals had not had any extension dialogue with Montgomery’s or Flaherty’s camps before the All-Star Break, Woo writes.

Probably add Dejongand Stratton to that list as well. I think these (4) are the peices that are all but assured to be moved at the deadline. 

Quote

Additionally, Woo reports that the Cardinals are finding trade interest in each of Chris Stratton, Giovanny Gallegos and Ryan Helsley.

I'd hang onto Helsley just in that he's been on the IL. See if you can get him back close to 2022 level and then flip him next year if needed, or package him in the off-season. Gallegos will have some real value if we're looking to move him. He's still got control left and has been one of the most consistent relievers in all of baseball over last (3) years. he can also pitch anywhere from 6th-9th inning. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by kgarrett12486

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I think he's one of our more valuable trade assets. On the other hand, he looks to have figured it out this season and has been one of the filthiest closers over the last (3) months. 

I'm in the boat that we should trade him for a haul.  He's one of the best closers, but his arm is always going to be a concern both in terms of command and in terms of injury risk.  Let someone else pay for him both in terms of prospects and money.

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Probably add Dejongand Stratton to that list as well. I think these (4) are the peices that are all but assured to be moved at the deadline. 

Those are both locks to be moved.  I can't see how you go through the deadline and neither one of them are moved.

3 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

I'd hang onto Helsley just in that he's been on the IL. See if you can get him back close to 2022 level and then flip him next year if needed, or package him in the off-season. Gallegos will have some real value if we're looking to move him. He's still got control left and has been one of the most consistent relievers in all of baseball over last (3) years. he can also pitch anywhere from 6th-9th inning. 

Helsley falls into the O'Neill territory for me.  Unless someone is willing to overpay for them, I'm not movinv either one of them.  I'd listen to offers on Gallegos, but I'm not tripping over getting rid of him.

[kgarrett12486]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

I'm in the boat that we should trade him for a haul.  He's one of the best closers, but his arm is always going to be a concern both in terms of command and in terms of injury risk.  Let someone else pay for him both in terms of prospects and money.

Helsley falls into the O'Neill territory for me.  Unless someone is willing to overpay for them, I'm not movinv either one of them.  I'd listen to offers on Gallegos, but I'm not tripping over getting rid of him.

I'm leaning that way as well on Hicks. His value is at a peak currently. The control issues will always be there. Not worried about the injury risk, you can literally attach that to any pitcher now a days. Everyone's arm is time bomb. He's probably our 2nd best trade chip. Mutli year deals for relievers rarely work out and we're probably looking at a 3 year/$35million range of a deal. Why not just take the Chapman approach with him, where Yankees told him they were gonna deal him to a contender for the assets (which benefited both sides), but prefaced they wanted him back and planted that seed to bring him back in FA. if the Cards took that appraoch I could get behind giving him a deal, but not just giving him the extension outright...

Agree on Helsley. No need to sell on him now with him coming off a (3) month IL stint. Teams aren't gonna be willing to give you fair value. While he wasn't pitching to his 2022 level, he was still having a good year up until the injury. Add in the fact that you still have (2) years of control. Gallegos though, I think it might be the right time to sell on him. He's been the model of consistency for a BP arm (which is rare) since he's been here, but man they've taxed that arm extensively. I think he might be nearing the end of his shelf life. Better to see a year early than late (like we typically do with guys). With him still having potentially (2) years of control as well, that gives him immense value. 

[StLunatic88]

6 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I think he's one of our more valuable trade assets. On the other hand, he looks to have figured it out this season and has been one of the filthiest closers over the last (3) months. 

Quote

It is odd to me that Derrick Goold does not seem to hold the same belief about the Hicks extension. In his Chat he kept talking about trading him (and Helsley) away. Which I would be completely fine with.

But he als okept hinting that Gorman may be one of the pieces on the move, which I would like a whole lot less

[kgarrett12486]

49 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

It is odd to me that Derrick Goold does not seem to hold the same belief about the Hicks extension. In his Chat he kept talking about trading him (and Helsley) away. Which I would be completely fine with.

But he als okept hinting that Gorman may be one of the pieces on the move, which I would like a whole lot less

yah, I was curious why we hadn't heard anything from Goold on the Hicks extension rumor. Who really knows what's going on. I'm not even sure the FO has a plan for this given they've never been in this position. It's going to be an interesting 6 days!

I'm gonna be bummed if we trade Gorman, but I understand it's going to take a guy like him to truly pull off getting a young, MLBetsablished front of the rotation peice via the trade market. He's likely a headliner in a deal for the likes of a Gilbert, etc. 

[StLunatic88]

25 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

He's likely a headliner in a deal for the likes of a Gilbert, etc. 

I still don’t think Gilbert is actually available, and I would be underwhelmed if we moved Gorman for one of their arms a tier lower. Even if that means I’m overrating Gorman at this point. But I do understand NG is what it probably takes to get a team/cost controlled arm. 

On a side note, @CWood21 please kee doubting Masyn Winn. Feels like you are personally fueling this tear that he’s on right now

[kgarrett12486]

3 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

I still don’t think Gilbert is actually available, and I would be underwhelmed if we moved Gorman for one of their arms a tier lower. Even if that means I’m overrating Gorman at this point. But I do understand NG is what it probably takes to get a team/cost controlled arm. 

Yah, I said this earlier but I think the Mariners and Cardinals match-up better for a potential off-season move than a deadline deal. I honestly don't think Mariners are looking to move any of their current established rotation peices at the deadline, as they're still in the hunt. Teams are much more inclined to move these types of guys in off-season deals with multiple moving parts than at the deadline. I think the same goes for us with Gorman. if we do trade him, I think it's an offseason block buster type deal vs. now. 

Honestly though, I'd much rather keep Gorman and find a way to use Nootbaar as a headliner.  

[StLunatic88]

3 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Honestly though, I'd much rather keep Gorman and find a way to use Nootbaar as a headliner.  

I completely agree, but seems like this Front Office is absolutely enamored with Noot for some reason

I was on Woo from the M's if they wanted one of our starters+ because they are going to have to shut him down anyway, and it wouldnt impact what they will be rolling out there in September an beyond.

But as they fall back a bit, seems like they might be hanging onto everything until the Ohtani bidding is complete, as it seems they may be one of the favorites. Which would obviously impact what they do with the rest of the roster. 

Im honestly back to; 

• Sell off all Free Agents to be (Jack, Hicks, Stratton, DeJong and even Montgomery now, as Goold seemed to indicate that the sides dont currently see a long term fit in St Louis)
• Listen on a few more minor pieces (Knizner, Gallegos, etc.)
• Clean up the rest of the 40-Man this offseason 
  • Make a decision who you are keeping as OF (Walker, Nootbaar, plus one or two of Carlson, O'Neill, Berleson, Donovan, Edman)
  • Make a long term Decision on Contreras
  • Sign one Starter and trade for Another

[CWood21]

5 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

It is odd to me that Derrick Goold does not seem to hold the same belief about the Hicks extension. In his Chat he kept talking about trading him (and Helsley) away. Which I would be completely fine with.

But he als okept hinting that Gorman may be one of the pieces on the move, which I would like a whole lot less

I'm not thrilled with the idea of trading Nolan Gorman, but I'm also not tied to keeping him here either.  Defensively, he's probably never going to be more than average and he's always going to have to swing and miss tendencies that lead to his streakiness.  Brendan Donovan's natural position is probably 2B anyways, so it's not like we wouldn't have someone ready to slot into that position.

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

On a side note, @CWood21 please kee doubting Masyn Winn. Feels like you are personally fueling this tear that he’s on right now

Trust me, I'd love nothing more than for Masyn Winn to continue making me look foolish.  But you're also lying that you'd feel a LOT better about him being ready in 2024 if he continues his play the rest of the year as opposed to struggling and we've already dealt Tommy Edman at the deadline.

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

I completely agree, but seems like this Front Office is absolutely enamored with Noot for some reason

For good reason, he plays a solid defense in CF and he gets on base.  Nootbaar isn't the problem.  I love Nolan Gorman, and would prefer him be successful in St. Louis than elsewhere but Nootbaar is a far more consistent player.

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

I was on Woo from the M's if they wanted one of our starters+ because they are going to have to shut him down anyway, and it wouldnt impact what they will be rolling out there in September an beyond.

Unless you're talking about Montgomery, I don't think you're getting an MLB-ready starter for Jack Flaherty.