Forge Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 Jalen Hurts should have never been an all pro last year or been in the MVP discussion. Team was too good. Thank god we dodged a bullet and didn't give it to him. That would have been embarrassing looking back at that choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 Just now, Forge said: See, this is actually where i disagree somewhat, but I could be misunderstanding what you are saying. I don't think that voters typically look at how good the rosters are in comparing possible MVPs. I think we would have had some very different voting outcomes if that were the case. I think voting is pretty straight forward for the most part - one of the best teams in the league, mvp, stats and you pick. Those things pretty much whittle it down to just a few guys. Should we consider "value" in a literal sense? I don't know. I mean, that's opening a crazy box. As I mentioned, production per dollar would be one of the most valuable things in a salary cap league...how do we weigh that? If its not weighted, why not? As crazy as it is to think, you can absolutely make a case that if you have a great backup, you shouldn't be considered because your net value isn't as great as Aaron Rodgers when his backup is Zach Wilson. I was interpreting his criteria to be - "QB with the least amount of help on a top-tier W/L team". So a mix of record + support. I don't agree with that criterion personally, but I think it's fair in that it's consistent and that it's a reasonable way for a regular person to vote (assuming statistics are relatively equal, which in this case they are ish or could at least end the year being close). I don't like the "valuable" take either, because I think that's super subjective. And I instinctually read your take and thought "wtf obviously contract shouldn't matter [eyeroll]" but I start thinking about it and if we are splitting out defensive positions and grading surrounding team, - why wouldn't you consider it as a part of total value lol? This is why I don't like playing context game. Jalen Hurts TDs count no matter how many inches he fell forward. Lamar's running yards and TDs should count as much as passing stats, even if he's a QB. And I think we should value Purdy's stats for what they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typecast Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Nope. My stance has been pretty firm. 26 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: How about this. He can't have one of these: Elite Coaching Elite Running game Elite Defense On 12/7/2023 at 9:01 AM, Art_Vandalay said: Nick Wright said it perfectly. If Purdy can't even make the promo for games (over CMac), then he ain't the MVP. If the actor isn't on the movie poster, he's probably not the Lead. As much as we make fun of Dak, he should probably be the front-runner right now. The schedule gets rough though so we'll see. 16 hours ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: I hope you're being facetious, because that take via Nick Wright is up there with Colin judging a QB based on whether they wear their hat backwards or not. 15 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said: Not being facetious at all. 23 hours ago, Soggust said: So the promo guys get to pick MVP? lol Sorry Dak Make this make sense pls. Edited December 8, 2023 by typecast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 1 minute ago, typecast said: Make this make sense pls. to be fair, i'm going to come clean and admit that I don't know 100% in hindsight if that poster was from this year. I just googled snf cowboys promo or something and grabbed the first image that fit my narrative. But I do still agree overall that marketability is an unrealistic way to consider value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Soggust said: I was interpreting his criteria to be - "QB with the least amount of help on a top-tier W/L team". So a mix of record + support. And I think that this is totally fair because ultimately, when you whittle it down to the last 3 guys or so, most years you're going to be splitting hairs. There are very few years imo where there's clearly just that one guy. But arbitrarily removing guys from consideration right from jump just because you think that the team is ostensibly too good is insane to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typecast Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Soggust said: to be fair, i'm going to come clean and admit that I don't know 100% in hindsight if that poster was from this year. I just googled snf cowboys promo or something and grabbed the first image that fit my narrative. But I do still agree overall that marketability is an unrealistic way to consider value. https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/cowboys-eagles-preview-analysis-predictions-on-the-weekends-best-nfl-game Edited December 8, 2023 by typecast 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, Soggust said: to be fair, i'm going to come clean and admit that I don't know 100% in hindsight if that poster was from this year. I just googled snf cowboys promo or something and grabbed the first image that fit my narrative. But I do still agree overall that marketability is an unrealistic way to consider value. lol it's both. If you go to the actual app (I'm one of the 11 people in the country with Peacock), they do show Hurst / Dak. But what you put out was actual digital advertising for this weeks game from NBC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Forge said: Jalen Hurts should have never been an all pro last year or been in the MVP discussion. Team was too good. Thank god we dodged a bullet and didn't give it to him. That would have been embarrassing looking back at that choice. “Team’s too good, doesn’t count” *ignores MVP candidate from last season that had great pass catchers, strong runners, #1 OL, almost a record breaking defense in sacks, strong LB play, and great secondary play* Edited December 8, 2023 by Soko 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, JIllg said: Think about amazing quarterbacks with crazy supporting casts - Tom Brady in 2007. Kurt Warner in 1999. Patrick Mahomes in 2019. Dan Marino in 1984. Steve Young in 1994. I don't really care. On a per-dropback basis, Brock has thrown for more yards per attempt any of those dudes (2000 Kurt Warner can take an exception here - the Greatest Show on Turf was pretty nuts). Even when you adjust yards per attempt with the results of sacks and interceptions, he's behind only 2004 Peyton Manning and 2011 Aaron Rodgers all time. 2004 Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James, and Dallas Clark. What a nerd! 2011 Rodgers had Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, and Jermichal Finley. As it turns out, if you want to post an all-time set of stats, you had better have really great context around you. 2019 - Chiefs had a bottom 10 run game statistically and an average defense 2011 - Packers had the worst defense in the league (ypg) and a bottom 10 rushing attack statistically 2007 - Brady broke records and the running game was statistically average 2004 - Colts had a bottom 5 defense (ypg) and run game was middle of the pack statistically Those other ones, we're going back a looong time. Give Purdy an All-Pro and Pro Bowl nod. I have no issue with that. But if you're telling me a QB has a top 5 defense, a top 5 running game (and he isn't the source of the rushing yards), and an elite coach, you're never going to convince me he's deserving of MVP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 14 minutes ago, Forge said: Jalen Hurts should have never been an all pro last year or been in the MVP discussion. Team was too good. Thank god we dodged a bullet and didn't give it to him. That would have been embarrassing looking back at that choice. Agreed. Mahomes 100% deserved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typecast Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Agreed. Mahomes 100% deserved it. Sorry, this is probably the last one. Was Andy Reid and/or Eric Bieniemy considered an elite coach last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 13 minutes ago, typecast said: Make this make sense pls. You're really hanging on to that promo comment lol. My bad. I shouldn't have suggested a promo should be a factor in determining MVP. Does it make sense now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 1 minute ago, typecast said: Sorry, this is probably the last one. Was Andy Reid and/or Eric Bieniemy considered an elite coach last year? Yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 7 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Give Purdy an All-Pro We can't do that, because then he will eligible lol 12 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said: If a team is full of All-Pros / HOFers and the QB isn’t either of those, they should not win MVP. (obv I'm not seriously trying to nitpick comments. I get your point was hyperbolic like the poster thing. I just thought it was funny joke lol) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typecast Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, typecast said: Sorry, this is probably the last one. Was Andy Reid and/or Eric Bieniemy considered an elite coach last year? 2 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: Yes. 44 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: How about this. He can't have one of these: Elite Coaching Elite Running game Elite Defense By Purdy Law, Mahomes did not deserve MVP last year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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