Problem with top 2 WRs

[rlon]

I want to make it clear that our top two receivers have accomplished very little in this league to date. They are not Santonio Holmes and Antonio Brown. I have serious concerns about their maturity levels, especially Johnson, who has been in the league a few years now. What really concerns me is how stupid they think the media and fans are. I know Tomlin doesn’t want a culture wherein the child who threw the rock just deals with the consequences by saying ‘wasn’t me’. A message needs to be sent, and they need to start with Johnson this week. I don’t care if it is something as benign as sitting him for the opening series, but it has to be something. You cannot let these guys divide the locker room and take no responsibility for their actions. Johnson’s timing as to his behaviors are particularly frustrating, as the team was clearly trying to light an offensive spark in the wake of moving on from Canada. They were successful overall, Johnson not so much, but you have to mirror the overall mood of the team on that day. That is what I find most egregious. Give Austin the first series…formulate a stepwise disciplinary plan for this nonsense going forward. Unfortunately, or at least in my mind, WR has become a bigger need in the offseason.

[bigben07MVP]

1 hour ago, rlon said:

I want to make it clear that our top two receivers have accomplished very little in this league to date. They are not Santonio Holmes and Antonio Brown. I have serious concerns about their maturity levels, especially Johnson, who has been in the league a few years now. What really concerns me is how stupid they think the media and fans are. I know Tomlin doesn’t want a culture wherein the child who threw the rock just deals with the consequences by saying ‘wasn’t me’. A message needs to be sent, and they need to start with Johnson this week. I don’t care if it is something as benign as sitting him for the opening series, but it has to be something. You cannot let these guys divide the locker room and take no responsibility for their actions. Johnson’s timing as to his behaviors are particularly frustrating, as the team was clearly trying to light an offensive spark in the wake of moving on from Canada. They were successful overall, Johnson not so much, but you have to mirror the overall mood of the team on that day. That is what I find most egregious. Give Austin the first series…formulate a stepwise disciplinary plan for this nonsense going forward. Unfortunately, or at least in my mind, WR has become a bigger need in the offseason.

Well said 

[warfelg]

I'm going to start with the WR you didn't mention a ton about in Pickens.  Mostly because I believe that Pickens issue isn't that bad and it's more about what's happening on the field.  He's simply not getting the target share he should.  He's the T36th most targeted player in the NFL, T57 in catches.  What's interesting about that is his being T4 in YPC is the only reason he's got as many yards as he has.  He's only had 2 drops so that shows why his 54% catch rate is that low.  So to me the issue with Pickens is just he needs to get the ball more, needs to be target more.  He should be seeing 8-10 targets a game.

Just to give some context on our ball distribution:

WR1 (Pickens) - 22%

WR2 (Johnson) - 16.7% (missed 4 games)

RB's (Najee/Warren/McFarland) - 23%

TE's (Freiermuth/Washington/Heyward/Williams) - 19%

WR3 (Robinson/Austin) - 19%

Notice an issue there?

To take a team with similar passing numbers to us: the Eagles.  We've had 330 targets to players, they've had 333.  So very similar there in terms of how many passes we've thrown.  Here's what their breakdown looks like:

WR1 (Brown) - 32%

WR2 (Smith) - 23%

RB's (Swift/Gainwell/Scott/Penny) - 20%

TE's (Goedert/Stoll) - 18%

WR3 (Zaccheaus/Watkins/Jones) - 8%

So focusing in on Pickens - in our offense right now he's had 73 targets which would put him 3rd on the Eagles list.  If he was getting a real WR1 share, he would have 100 targets at this point.  Right now he's not getting there until Week 16 with his current rate.  We've given way too much target share to WR3's and RB's in this offense so far because of Canada's design.  What I saw this past week was that the design under Faulkner & Sullivan was that WR's are going to get a bigger share of targets (I know that Muth got the most) and they are going to be weapons to move the ball, where they were just told to get in space in Canada's offense.  They were basically extra running backs with how small their depth of target was.

 

As for DJ - he's the one on this that I am worried about, especially moving forward.  He's constantly had these effort issues.  He's had reports of fights/arguments in the lockerroom for a few years now.  On top of that it's one of those always someone else's fault.  His comments the last few weeks on twitter/X to people calling out his effort, his having sideline blowups, locker room blow ups is getting old.  He's the classic "I did what I was told" without understanding the football IQ part.  The number of times that he has run the dig rather than something else, or went on the fly when he should have comeback, then looks at the QB like they did something wrong is a problem because it's spanned a few QB's not that he's done this stuff with.  To steal a line from The Avengers - "Your not the guy who would lie on the wire".

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, rlon said:

Unfortunately, or at least in my mind, WR has become a bigger need in the offseason.

I don't see it as much of a need as OL, but agree that these WR's are having maturity issues or have anyways. dionte gets seperation when he wants, but what about when he doesn't care?

This is where UFA helps if the market is decent, as the players history in the NFL is known and there shouldn't be the drama and issues we are familiar with. Raiders took a chance on AB and look what happened. Don't waste time with players that can't behave as professionals. 

With Muth being WR1 and GP a keeper, I see dionte being traded especially after this recent showing. This FO has a history of doing well with WR in the draft but is this calls deep or top heavy?

[3rivers]

5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Notice an issue there?

nice post. it shows the philosophy of even distribution of the passing game. That actually seems wrong because some players will get open more and they should get the ball more. Some are better, they should get the ball more.    Below makes more sense. Plus, as a top WR1 gets more targets, the defence will possibly send more coverage that way. THEN the other players can get catches and possibly be more open and have more room to run after catch as well. 

6 minutes ago, warfelg said:

To take a team with similar passing numbers to us: the Eagles.  We've had 330 targets to players, they've had 333.  So very similar there in terms of how many passes we've thrown.  Here's what their breakdown looks like:

WR1 (Brown) - 32%

WR2 (Smith) - 23%

RB's (Swift/Gainwell/Scott/Penny) - 20%

TE's (Goedert/Stoll) - 18%

WR3 (Zaccheaus/Watkins/Jones) - 8%

 

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

On top of that it's one of those always someone else's fault.  His comments the last few weeks on twitter/X to people calling out his effort, his having sideline blowups, locker room blow ups is getting old. 

reminds me of AB minus the top of the NFL production for 6 years  in a row techmo bowl type play.

 

10 minutes ago, warfelg said:

He's the classic "I did what I was told" without understanding the football IQ part.

he might have the football IQ, but not accountability so this is a way to shift blame - pretend he doesn't know

 

11 minutes ago, warfelg said:

then looks at the QB like they did something wrong is a problem because it's spanned a few QB's not that he's done this stuff with

if it goes on much more, trade partners might see the pattern and not offer much. Ideally he gets his 'act' together for the remainder of 23' and we trade him with a claypool type trade . It is well known that dionte gets separation and was a probowler so that is better than claypool.  Could we get a 2nd and a 4th the following year?  No way we get a 2nd,  and I doubt we can call up the bears again . Maybe it's the panthers this year, send them the tape of the panthers game from last year, maybe that owner will step in like he did with the draft 

[warfelg]

17 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

nice post. it shows the philosophy of even distribution of the passing game. That actually seems wrong because some players will get open more and they should get the ball more. Some are better, they should get the ball more.    Below makes more sense. Plus, as a top WR1 gets more targets, the defence will possibly send more coverage that way. THEN the other players can get catches and possibly be more open and have more room to run after catch as well. 

For me it more reflects the focus on coaching.  Under Canada as a whole, WR1 was 25% of targets, followed by TE then RB at 21% and 18% respectively, then WR3 and WR2 were at 17% respectively.  It's just kind of reiterates to me that his offense stressed other positions.

18 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

reminds me of AB minus the top of the NFL production for 6 years  in a row techmo bowl type play.

The thing is DJ kind of has the production - the difference is the mistakes.

19 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

he might have the football IQ, but not accountability so this is a way to shift blame - pretend he doesn't know

I'm not convinced he does.  He seems to lack directional and positional awareness when he has the ball in the hand.  He's constantly out of position against zone coverages.

[3rivers]

7 minutes ago, warfelg said:

He seems to lack directional and positional awareness when he has the ball in the hand.  He's constantly out of position against zone coverages.

runs backwards more than anyone for whatever reason.  

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

The thing is DJ kind of has the production - the difference is the mistakes.

'kind of' are stats many players have. AB was on his own tier for years, just a total techmo bowl champ, and thats from someone that didn't care for him for the last few years either. Just the facts, his numbers at the time were techmo champ, while dionte is like many IMO.  The mistakes of course are the problem, they happen often enough that it makes me think they will always be a part of his game. Just  deal with it  and if the team can't , then deal it (dionte) to the panthers

 

11 minutes ago, warfelg said:

It's just kind of reiterates to me that his offense stressed other positions.

what % distribution do you expect now? I am thinking they will throw to whoever has the better matchups based on players and the defensive schemes . I still hold out hope they get GP more involved as well. Muth and GP from here on,  with DW run blocking more and getting a few as well. They won't throw dionte into the doghouse,  instead he might not be WR1 that gets majority of passes unless he has the better matchup and actually cares and is paying attention

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, 3rivers said:

what % distribution do you expect now? I am thinking they will throw to whoever has the better matchups based on players and the defensive schemes . I still hold out hope they get GP more involved as well. Muth and GP from here on,  with DW run blocking more and getting a few as well. They won't throw dionte into the doghouse,  instead he might not be WR1 that gets majority of passes unless he has the better matchup and actually cares and is paying attention

I would say I just want to see WR1 and WR2 be the biggest percent and down from there.  I just don't want to see TE and RB end these next 5 games as a bigger priority than WR2.  Using the percent is the easy way of looking at it, but what we say there easily shows that check downs was a preferred look in Canada's offense.  The WR's were basically a means to clear out space for the under guys.  No one fell for it because NFL defenses are smart.

What I would like is more conceited efforts to use concepts that free up GP.  They sprung him free by design 3 times by my count.  On one of them Kenny was sacked, one Kenny was off on the pass, and one they connected.  But they made the defense defend the depth of the field and it spring him.

On the crossers that Kenny missed, they had CA going deep, Muth on the under, and the LBers bit the under with S biting the over and it was a huge window.  On the slot fade, GP threw in a slight hesitation before carrying deeper and because you had two curls under got the S to sleep on the slot fade, then he did a great job of "staying skinny" to give Kenny the space to drop in the pass.  

If Faulkner and Sullivan keep doing that stuff then Pickens will easily eat because it's going to become a pick your poison.  It also does a great job of giving Kenny "depth" reads rather than "width" reads.  Take the slot fade - if the read was structured the way I assume, GP was the first read, then it was DJ on the curl, then Muth running the drag (I think that's who were on the other two routes).  That goes deep to shallow, keeps his eyes on half the field to complete a read, and allows him to speed up the process.  

[3rivers]

5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I would say I just want to see WR1 and WR2 be the biggest percent and down from there.  I just don't want to see TE and RB end these next 5 games as a bigger priority than WR2.

normally I would agree, but if Muth is in fact a big WR1/WR2, then I am good with that. Let DW be the blocking TE since he holds up well there, pun intended (that was a hold but we got one there) . Problem with my view is if Muth and GP get the majority, we know dionte will pout and stop blocking on runs

 

7 minutes ago, warfelg said:

But they made the defense defend the depth of the field and it spring him.

did they do this much at all with Canada? All I remember is short passes and GP never got going most games.

9 minutes ago, warfelg said:

If Faulkner and Sullivan keep doing that stuff then Pickens will easily eat because it's going to become a pick your poison.

how an offence should be especially with GP

9 minutes ago, warfelg said:

That goes deep to shallow, keeps his eyes on half the field to complete a read, and allows him to speed up the process.  

if they work with KP like this, it will keep getting better. I expect  the offence to get better but just how much could surprise .  In all this, I hope they don't abandon the run game and get more play action from the run game if it's winning. 

canada ran the offence that appears to me the most painful to watch for this team since I started watching. fichner and ben were terrible as well but ben was on his way out and his arm was about done.  

do we as steeler fans have a reason to think ' the offence can only get better, just how much'?   

[warfelg]

https://x.com/tomlin_sense/status/1728869082395750800?s=46&t=xd5QJpZuXv2k7qD0xqd6aA
🤣😂🤣

[jebrick]

I did like Clark saying that DJ had no friends because friends would sit him down and chew him out for that lack-luster play.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I did like Clark saying that DJ had no friends because friends would sit him down and chew him out for that lack-luster play.

That was far nicer that what Lewan said. 

[3rivers]

25 minutes ago, warfelg said:

https://x.com/tomlin_sense/status/1728869082395750800?s=46&t=xd5QJpZuXv2k7qD0xqd6aA
🤣😂🤣

how times have changed

23 minutes ago, jebrick said:

I did like Clark saying that DJ had no friends because friends would sit him down and chew him out for that lack-luster play.

maybe he will get traded, did the team just give up on him? How does the team let this go and not have at  least one player (Minkah even) get after him after this happened?

 

I expect a rebound from dionte this week, then all this will be forgotten (for a while until next episode whenever that is) 

[MOSteelers56]

16 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

I expect a rebound from dionte this week

I don't. I thought last game was going to be his rebound, but it seems like he just isn't very interested in changing. I think the Minkah spat happened after the Browns game. 

[3rivers]

Just now, MOSteelers56 said:

I don't. I thought last game was going to be his rebound, but it seems like he just isn't very interested in changing. I think the Minkah spat happened after the Browns game. 

maybe time for a healthy scratch or maybe the doghouse if it gets bad but that will be a major distraction despite sending the message. They have to tolerate this.  If he drops another TD though, maybe forget about him in the RZ or entirely, just let him get his cardio out there and blame canada of course