This is where I am at with Poles, Fields and Eberflus.

[dll2000]

24 minutes ago, TankWilliams said:

To be fair, Alan Williams was not related to football.  

True.  It could have been though.  He stunk.  

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

How would you guys rank the coaching staffs in the NFC North?  Certainly seems like Dan Campbell has something positive if a little unorthodox going.  LaFleur seems to have done well developing and selecting Love, and to be honest seems to be particularly well suited to beating the Bears for some reason.  Kevin O'Connell had a seriously impressive stretch taking rando's and getting tolerable QB play out of them this year.   Our guys seem to be really good at keeping the team together after heartbreaking losses, but on balance I'd rather have a coach that doesn't need that skill.   

[dll2000]

Just now, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

How would you guys rank the coaching staffs in the NFC North?  Certainly seems like Dan Campbell has something positive if a little unorthodox going.  LaFleur seems to have done well developing and selecting Love, and to be honest seems to be particularly well suited to beating the Bears for some reason.  Kevin O'Connell had a seriously impressive stretch taking rando's and getting tolerable QB play out of them this year.   Our guys seem to be really good at keeping the team together after heartbreaking losses, but on balance I'd rather have a coach that doesn't need that skill.   

Dan Campbell had a lot of tank years and a mega trade to acquire blue chip talent.  I think their coaches are overrated other than being good motivators and good leaders. 

LaFluer is best offensive coach by far - but his chosen DC sucks against everyone but us.   His specials continually suck too.  His division record since he arrived kind of speaks for itself and he got it done without Rodgers this year.  So he has my nod for best HC.  

MN has good coaching across board - but can't seem to evaluate young talent so they are heading in wrong direction.  I guess that is on their GM.  Flores was easily best defensive coach in entire league in my opinion in 2023.  

Bears - Flus is a great DC.  Special teams are good.  OC is a trainwreck.

 

 

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

I like a lot of the things Justin Fields can do, but have come to the conclusion that he is too limited to ever get us anywhere.  We aren't going to win any championships with him under center.  At this point, I think we need to trade him for whatever we can get, and find a more complete quarterback.  My preference would be to trade down to #2 and draft Jayden Daniels.

I would also replace the GM and Head Coach.  If you draft a potentially elite quarterback, you need an offensive minded head coach and a GM who is smart enough to realize this.

That's my two cents.

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

22 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Dan Campbell had a lot of tank years and a mega trade to acquire blue chip talent.  I think their coaches are overrated other than being good motivators and good leaders. 

LaFluer is best offensive coach by far - but his chosen DC sucks against everyone but us.   His specials continually suck too.  His division record since he arrived kind of speaks for itself and he got it done without Rodgers this year.  So he has my nod for best HC.  

MN has good coaching across board - but can't seem to evaluate young talent so they are heading in wrong direction.  I guess that is on their GM.  Flores was easily best defensive coach in entire league in my opinion in 2023.  

Bears - Flus is a great DC.  Special teams are good.  OC is a trainwreck.

 

 

He also got it done without Cousins.  I don't see any way he would have gotten it done if the Vikings hadn't been working with scrub quarterbacks for half the season.

[Sugashane]

15 minutes ago, SodeeWater_Cheezburger said:

He also got it done without Cousins.  I don't see any way he would have gotten it done if the Vikings hadn't been working with scrub quarterbacks for half the season.

That's a valid point, MIN beat GB when they had Cousins too. I'd wager Cousins puts up more than 10 points vs CHI as well so that alone puts them only 1 game behind GB.

But they did lose Rodgers and had a ridiculously young group to work with. Started slow but once things were adjusted to better fit Love there was definitely progression on offense. MLF is a pretty damn good coach sadly.

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

31 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

That's a valid point, MIN beat GB when they had Cousins too. I'd wager Cousins puts up more than 10 points vs CHI as well so that alone puts them only 1 game behind GB.

But they did lose Rodgers and had a ridiculously young group to work with. Started slow but once things were adjusted to better fit Love there was definitely progression on offense. MLF is a pretty damn good coach sadly.

Yeah, Minnesota was pretty easily a better team with Cousins than Green Bay is.  Minnesota even beat San Francisco before Cousins went down.

Your right though, that the Packers' young receivers did hold them back this year.  I'm holding out for another season before making a decision on MLF.  It might just be wishful thinking, but I don't give him all that much credit when Rodgers was there.  He did fine with the young group he had this year, but I'm hoping he will fold next year when the Vikings get their QB back and the Bears have another year of rebuilding through a draft with some high picks in it. 

 

[StLunatic88]

58 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

So you and I have agreed prior that this was at least a 3 year turnaround with Poles having to completely gut the roster. So lets say you're in Warren's shoes. Where would you draw the line?

I am very happy to have this conversation, but there are a few things I want to address before we dive in;

First of all, putting a Win Number or a specific milestone (playoffs, etc.) on what success would be is the wrong way to go about it in my mind. But we can talk through it all here.

Secondly, I think you guys have an outsized view of what Kevin Warren is doing on the Football side at this point. He was brought in primarily for the Stadium stuff, and from what I believe to be true, he isnt coming into the Football side all that much unless there is a conversation to be had on Poles/Eberflus and the success/or not of the 3 year plan laid out when they were hired. Speaking of, lets talk about the hot button topic;

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

after 2 years there's no real answers being given for Fields. Is he a guy who is a 13-20 QB or just the most exciting back up in league history? (exaggeration but making a point). If anything there seems to be more concerns about Fields now than last year because there was a blueprint that worked with significantly less talent in 2022, but the Bears added a true #1 and several pieces on the OL to go from 19.2ppg to 21.2ppg.

This all depends on what was pitched in the plan, but the one thing I do know is that everyone involved acquiesced to "run the Green Bay Offense". Which I think everyone here can figure out who made that demand. Knowing that, I do believe that colors the offensive output for the last 2 years as the old farts dont understand you dont do that with a dynamic QB. 

But back to my point, and I made it on here last week. I dont think Poles came in going "we have our QB" and is tied to Fields. I think he pitched the full tear down, and 3 year rebuild program, while also finding out what they had in Fields. I think he was ready to move on from Fields if he didnt show out this year, but there is now a monkey wrench in the whole thing; Justin Fields might have become one of the leagues best Locker Room Leaders, while disappointing as a passer, but still also showing the explosiveness as a playmaker. Its a mess that probably has never been encountered before (not that I can recall). Id also be careful comparing scoring and stats, not only did JF miss 5 games (where we averaged 16.5 per) but we had an OC who either cant figure out how to use him or flat out refused to. 

This doesnt make JF blameless, but I think we actually do know what Fields is, its just that many (especially on here) dont like it enough because they think every QB should be Aaron Rodgers, while in reality there is more than one way to skin a cat. He is a dynamic Highlight Reel, who can rip off runs left and right, and make crazy throws a few times a game. But he will also get fooled at times (too often) by defenses, who will not pull the trigger unless he trusts his weapon is 100% open (I think this is Getsy's fault) and who will Infuriate you at times. You can still win with that, the Vikings (Culpepper) and Panthers (Newton) have shown it, you just have to build correctly around it. Not to mention, saying were going into 2024 with Justin Fields doesnt mean we are committing to him forever either. This sint a saituation with only 2 outcomes (Fields/Drat at #1 in '24) there are more options than that.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

So what recourse would you want for them to "figure out the QB spot?" Would you let Poles draft a guy with 1.1 if he wants to? Or are you

Heres the thing, we dont have 1.1 in the 2024 Draft without Ryan Poles, we dont have DJ Moore without Ryan Poles, because every one of us would have settled to take the deal closer to the top of the draft (HOU/IND) and just an extra 1st + some seconds. He is allowed to do whatever he believes is the right move with 1.1

Now, he has to believe Williams or Maye is the truth, that they are SO good that you would be passing on the Franchise Changer if you dont take them. I personally dont think anyone in this draft or next is that type of player. So I think you are falling into the 50/50 game just like every other QB Drafted in the past decade. And if thoise are my odds, I think rolling the dice one more time with the guy 3 years into the league who is a proven leader, who still obviously has a ton of potential, but obviously issues as well.

But Ill go back to this, it is SO MUCH easier to go make a move for a QB when you actually have a Roster built to plug them into. And I dont think we are anywhere close to that. Because if you go grab Caleb Williams, you are still looking at an offense (specifically) with a bunch of holes. Yes we will have another 1st, but we dont have a 2nd, and while we still have Cap room, we need to pay JJ and DJ before we even look at Free Agency. So are you going to be able to add 2/3 STARTING offensive lineman? While also finding 2 more starting caliber weapons? While also bolstering the depth on that side, while ALSO adding more talent to the Defense? You arent for sure going to be bale to do that with Trading 1.1, but you can fill a whole bunch more. But if you do go Caleb or Maye and they look bad behind a choppy OL and not enough weapons, how quickly are these hyenas turning on that guy too? Especially if the vets are already side eyeing him because he isnt the leader they all bought into?

Also, just alittle food for thought, how many QBs have it figured out when they are 24? Not many, so the fact that that entire locker room ready to line up and take every single arrow for him, even before he has fully figured out the passing, thats even more impressive to me. And if you are going to be a Run heavy offense, I have to factor that in when looking at my QB too. 

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

Two offseasons in you've admitted they are a bottom 10 roster. Still Poles has gutted it and has added numerous young talents that need time to develop. I'd say Dexter is well ahead of where I expected him to be, Stevenson has played well, etc.

Yes, and that should have been expected when Offseason 1 was almost entirely gut the Roster, without much Draft Capital or Cap Space. So the fact that we Won 7 games this year, and from October on we were in every single game except one (on the road for Chargers with Bagent) mostly due to the defense, that tell me the Coaching is working. Because we sure as hell arent Out-talenting these teams. Which is what makes me believe that the plan is working, along with the belief inside that locker room.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

Are you already set on giving Eberflus 4 years? Or would 2024 be his make-or-break year? Would Poles get to hire a second HC if you feel the team underperforms its talent level this season?

The only way I think that this group (Poles/Eberflus) is walking into a true "make-or-break year" without considering any other factors at season end is if they pound the table that Luke Getsy is the guy and can get this done. Because that would fly in the face of everything we have seen play out on the field. And they would need to show some type of special turnaround. (this would truly shock me)

But that doesnt mean if they get a new guy who they believe will start the offensive turn around that they are automatically safe either. They need to keep showing improvement, that the defense keeps this going, and closes a few more of those games. That the offense can run at least an average/reliable offense, and convert some of these FGs into TDs. 

And to your final question, if the scenario happens that Eberflus flounders in 2024 (defense stagnates, he loses the locker room, more of his staff has to be fired for off the field stuff) But Poles added even more alent with another amazing trade or a great draft with a new QB, Id give him all the run for another Coach. I dont think that situation is all that likely after '24, its probably they both are doing well, or they are both failing. I know you guys are tired of the "same thing" of not lining up GM/HC/QB, but I think its overrated, if you have a great talent, they are going to be great. (Mitch wasnt that, it was a bad pick, thats all)

[Sugashane]

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

I am very happy to have this conversation, but there are a few things I want to address before we dive in;

First of all, putting a Win Number or a specific milestone (playoffs, etc.) on what success would be is the wrong way to go about it in my mind. But we can talk through it all here.

True. I often look at how they have played themselves. Inside Halas Hall they have all the film they could want and know the calls. They might not know what audibles are made on the Field but they can see play by play what happened and make a pretty educated inference from there. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Secondly, I think you guys have an outsized view of what Kevin Warren is doing on the Football side at this point. He was brought in primarily for the Stadium stuff, and from what I believe to be true, he isnt coming into the Football side all that much unless there is a conversation to be had on Poles/Eberflus and the success/or not of the 3 year plan laid out when they were hired. Speaking of, lets talk about the hot button topic;

Ah, I was going by the title but I don't follow any sources or anything. I haven't even listened to a Bears podcast in years. Regardless I am happy to have the McCaskeys/Phillips out of hiring GMs if Poles doesn't work out. Obviously I hope he does. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

This all depends on what was pitched in the plan, but the one thing I do know is that everyone involved acquiesced to "run the Green Bay Offense". Which I think everyone here can figure out who made that demand. Knowing that, I do believe that colors the offensive output for the last 2 years as the old farts dont understand you dont do that with a dynamic QB. 

That's an issue for me as well. The Bears just tried to force Tru to be a pocket passer, before that they tried to dink and dunk with Cutler and use Forte's receiving to supplement the run game (which worked sporadically, but once defenses adjusted in Trestman's second year it went downhill fast). Why would they believe that would work. Not asking you specifically, it just baffles me. Take what the QB does REALLY well, abuse it, and slowly develop his weaknesses to add to his arsenal.

MJ wasn't a good shooter when he came to Chicago, he developed into one of the best midrange threats of all time though by constantly working it. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

But back to my point, and I made it on here last week. I dont think Poles came in going "we have our QB" and is tied to Fields. I think he pitched the full tear down, and 3 year rebuild program, while also finding out what they had in Fields. I think he was ready to move on from Fields if he didnt show out this year, but there is now a monkey wrench in the whole thing; Justin Fields might have become one of the leagues best Locker Room Leaders, while disappointing as a passer, but still also showing the explosiveness as a playmaker. Its a mess that probably has never been encountered before (not that I can recall). Id also be careful comparing scoring and stats, not only did JF miss 5 games (where we averaged 16.5 per) but we had an OC who either cant figure out how to use him or flat out refused to. 

I don't think Poles is tied to Fields either. That being said I do still have a suspicion that Eberflus might get the John Fox treatment from him just as Fox was treated by Pace. Fox had no idea that they were even looking at a QB from what I read, and Poles had the security of a longer approach than what he was allowing his first HC. Much like Fox, Eberflus has been a major piece to stabilizing the locker room, and Fields has been rock solid in that part as well. And Fields did score more than the 21, you're right. Taking out the MIN game where he barely got to play before being injured he was at like 23ish (and finished the season at 22.6ppg. But Getsy refusing to utilize his best assets as a QB just constantly reminded me of Nagy claiming he wasn't an idiot. Yes MFer, you really are!

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

This doesnt make JF blameless, but I think we actually do know what Fields is, its just that many (especially on here) dont like it enough because they think every QB should be Aaron Rodgers, while in reality there is more than one way to skin a cat. He is a dynamic Highlight Reel, who can rip off runs left and right, and make crazy throws a few times a game. But he will also get fooled at times (too often) by defenses, who will not pull the trigger unless he trusts his weapon is 100% open (I think this is Getsy's fault) and who will Infuriate you at times. You can still win with that, the Vikings (Culpepper) and Panthers (Newton) have shown it, you just have to build correctly around it. Not to mention, saying were going into 2024 with Justin Fields doesnt mean we are committing to him forever either. This sint a saituation with only 2 outcomes (Fields/Drat at #1 in '24) there are more options than that.

I would also really have liked for Getsy to be more proactive in scripting plays so he can get the play in ASAP and then either he or someone from the box can feed him information. McVay and Co did it for Goff, I think they have until 15 seconds left in the playclock before communications get shut down? I also think Getsy was likely trying to make the point to not turn the ball over and likely made Fields pretty gunshy. If Fields is going to be super conservative he is going to be backing up others for the bulk of his career. Hopefully the next playcaller lets him rip it but also forces him to play with a quickened pace. First read, second read, dump off, if that is covered, then run or throw it away. It's showcking how often the Bears were having negative yards but also being too conservative as well. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Heres the thing, we dont have 1.1 in the 2024 Draft without Ryan Poles, we dont have DJ Moore without Ryan Poles, because every one of us would have settled to take the deal closer to the top of the draft (HOU/IND) and just an extra 1st + some seconds. He is allowed to do whatever he believes is the right move with 1.1

I agree with that. While I think getting 1.1 this year was pure luck I do 100% believe Poles was scouting rosters/staffs and believed it would be a hell of a job for CAR to be drafting out of the top 5. It was a stroke of luck with (hopefully) some genius behind it. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Now, he has to believe Williams or Maye is the truth, that they are SO good that you would be passing on the Franchise Changer if you dont take them. I personally dont think anyone in this draft or next is that type of player. So I think you are falling into the 50/50 game just like every other QB Drafted in the past decade. And if thoise are my odds, I think rolling the dice one more time with the guy 3 years into the league who is a proven leader, who still obviously has a ton of potential, but obviously issues as well.

I could see that. I see Williams and Maye as potentially higher ceiling players than Fields but Fields is less of a mystery for sure. I personally just think if Eberflus is here then no new QB early, Fields stays and you overpay for an OC who fits Fields' skillset. I'm pretty much all in with Greg Roman. 

If the Bears would get a new HC then I want them to be an integral part of the review for Fields and the prospects in the draft, because I don't want to continue trying to force a piece that doesn't fit. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

But Ill go back to this, it is SO MUCH easier to go make a move for a QB when you actually have a Roster built to plug them into. And I dont think we are anywhere close to that. Because if you go grab Caleb Williams, you are still looking at an offense (specifically) with a bunch of holes. Yes we will have another 1st, but we dont have a 2nd, and while we still have Cap room, we need to pay JJ and DJ before we even look at Free Agency. So are you going to be able to add 2/3 STARTING offensive lineman? While also finding 2 more starting caliber weapons? While also bolstering the depth on that side, while ALSO adding more talent to the Defense? You arent for sure going to be bale to do that with Trading 1.1, but you can fill a whole bunch more. But if you do go Caleb or Maye and they look bad behind a choppy OL and not enough weapons, how quickly are these hyenas turning on that guy too? Especially if the vets are already side eyeing him because he isnt the leader they all bought into?

Contract structure could alleviate some of those issues too when re-signing players. And if you are drafting Williams then you are surely trading Fields, so that is one more piece. What can actually be had for Fields is anyone's guess but still. If the pick is traded I do hope they go more for trade capital rather than just trying to get a player for this season. Getting DJ was awesome but making that kind of steal is a rarity IMO. I want the Bears to be able to get the QB they want with their ammo in 2025 if Fields isn't the guy or be able to support him (or whoever the QB is) long term. 

As far as adding defense I think that should be secondary to the offense. That was what I wanted when they started making signings for 2023 - stack the offense and then let the defense get worked out later. I'd rather my QB be winning/losing shootouts than struggling and losing 9-17 or 10-12. Losing sucks either way, but getting to show your QB is the franchise face and produces like it will help resolve a lot of issues. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Also, just alittle food for thought, how many QBs have it figured out when they are 24? Not many, so the fact that that entire locker room ready to line up and take every single arrow for him, even before he has fully figured out the passing, thats even more impressive to me. And if you are going to be a Run heavy offense, I have to factor that in when looking at my QB too. 

Its a lot to ask for a young guy, but there's 32 franchises in the entire NFL and QBs are looking at 9 figure deals. They get the hardest position to deal with but are the most highly rewarded for it. Fair or not, that's just how it is IMO. Now that isn't expecting them to be fully developed at 24, but there needs to be enough growth that he is believed to be able to be worth that crazy amount of money, and is projected to be good enough that the monster deal is worth it. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Yes, and that should have been expected when Offseason 1 was almost entirely gut the Roster, without much Draft Capital or Cap Space. So the fact that we Won 7 games this year, and from October on we were in every single game except one (on the road for Chargers with Bagent) mostly due to the defense, that tell me the Coaching is working. Because we sure as hell arent Out-talenting these teams. Which is what makes me believe that the plan is working, along with the belief inside that locker room.

I could see that argument for that, but I could also see the argument that the Bears have coached themselves out of challenging for a playoff spot. Three really bad collapses not happening would have the Bears at 10-7, and if Getsy isn't an idiot I think that seals at least one game like CLE. Hell maybe he does a better job protecting Fields and Fields gets to play all 17. The first MIN game and NO might be totally different results. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

The only way I think that this group (Poles/Eberflus) is walking into a true "make-or-break year" without considering any other factors at season end is if they pound the table that Luke Getsy is the guy and can get this done. Because that would fly in the face of everything we have seen play out on the field. And they would need to show some type of special turnaround. (this would truly shock me)

If they pound the table for Getsy I would be fine with them all walking to be completely honest. lol. And while I am not a huge Eberflus fan he proved to be a better coach than his record and I actually like a lot of the moved Poles has made overall. 

14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

But that doesnt mean if they get a new guy who they believe will start the offensive turn around that they are automatically safe either. They need to keep showing improvement, that the defense keeps this going, and closes a few more of those games. That the offense can run at least an average/reliable offense, and convert some of these FGs into TDs. 

And to your final question, if the scenario happens that Eberflus flounders in 2024 (defense stagnates, he loses the locker room, more of his staff has to be fired for off the field stuff) But Poles added even more alent with another amazing trade or a great draft with a new QB, Id give him all the run for another Coach. I dont think that situation is all that likely after '24, its probably they both are doing well, or they are both failing. I know you guys are tired of the "same thing" of not lining up GM/HC/QB, but I think its overrated, if you have a great talent, they are going to be great. (Mitch wasnt that, it was a bad pick, thats all)

I'm not too worried about the GM and HC lining up, it is more the HC and QB for me. Generally playcallers know what traits work best in their systems, and whether hubris or just being over-specialized with their normal systems it seems most struggle to adapt for the talent at their disposal. I think that is a major issue both Getsy and Nagy have/had. Few would look at Rodgers' playing and say, "Man Fields would fit this like a glove." Quick read, lighting fast release, etc. No. Fields has a big arm, is a tremendous athlete, and needs to have the system simplified so he can process faster (for now at least). Get him moving to move the launch point and attack all levels and sides of the field, he has the arm for any throw. 

 

 

I like these deeper dive discussions a lot. Sorry about the delay in answering. I got crushed by work then Mondays are just my crazy day between practices/dance/etc.