Addressing the interior offensive line

[Heavy_Flow]

We've been decimated by injuries there this season.  But even if we're healthy, is our IOL where it needs to be?  I don't believe so.  I'd like to see us sign a quality center through FA and then draft a nasty guard to complete the IOL.  I think rookies Patterson and Scruggs are decent depth pieces, but I don't believe they're good enough to be starting.  You?

[Jakz]

We have invested way too much into the IOL and OL already. I don't think we will use any cap space on FA starters, or high draft pick allocation into the IOL. Injuries have been the biggest problem as you suggested. Juice Scruggs is absolutely the future for us at the Center position. We used a 2nd rd pick on him and you can already tell how good he is at zone blocking and pulling from the guard position; just imagine those pulls from the center position instead. 

The team is not giving up on Kenyon Green after only one season with him playing. I truly believe him being out this year was the best thing for him. Allowing him to heal up and actually focus on getting an NFL body/conditioning. He very well could be a bust, but they aren't going to give up on a 1st rd pick after only playing one season. Kendrick Green actually performed pretty well at OG before his season ending injury too.

Jarrett Patterson was a pleasant surprise (He graded out as about an average to below average center in his playing time this year), but he is absolutely a depth piece unless he can beat out The Green's for a OG position. Juice is quicker, stronger, more agile, and has two inch longer arms - Dude was built to be a zone blocking center.

The thing a lot of people aren't talking about has been how subpar Shaq Mason has been this year. Which kind of sucks because we extended him in the offseason. 

TLDR - I don't think we invest heavy into the IOL. We just sign veteran depth, or use late rd draft picks to supplement what we have already.

[lumberjackchris]

Way too much already invested already for that. Once healthy they can find a 5 man combo to get us through the next 2 seasons 

[Pastor Dillon]

It’s pretty clear that the plans for next year are 

Tunsil (extremely invested in)

green (1st round pick) 

Scruggs (2nd round pick)

Mason (big fa deal)

Howard (we just extended)

for depth we have Patterson and the other Green, Then we are gonna have some FA decisions on Fant, Jones and Heck 

 

but we have invested so heavily in the o-line that we are struck with what we got. There’s too many holes elsewhere to use draft Capitol here. 

[Heavy_Flow]

6 hours ago, Jakz said:

We have invested way too much into the IOL and OL already. I don't think we will use any cap space on FA starters, or high draft pick allocation into the IOL. Injuries have been the biggest problem as you suggested. Juice Scruggs is absolutely the future for us at the Center position. We used a 2nd rd pick on him and you can already tell how good he is at zone blocking and pulling from the guard position; just imagine those pulls from the center position instead. 

The team is not giving up on Kenyon Green after only one season with him playing. I truly believe him being out this year was the best thing for him. Allowing him to heal up and actually focus on getting an NFL body/conditioning. He very well could be a bust, but they aren't going to give up on a 1st rd pick after only playing one season. Kendrick Green actually performed pretty well at OG before his season ending injury too.

Jarrett Patterson was a pleasant surprise (He graded out as about an average to below average center in his playing time this year), but he is absolutely a depth piece unless he can beat out The Green's for a OG position. Juice is quicker, stronger, more agile, and has two inch longer arms - Dude was built to be a zone blocking center.

The thing a lot of people aren't talking about has been how subpar Shaq Mason has been this year. Which kind of sucks because we extended him in the offseason. 

TLDR - I don't think we invest heavy into the IOL. We just sign veteran depth, or use late rd draft picks to supplement what we have already.

 

Thanks.

[mse326]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:42 AM, lumberjackchris said:

Way too much already invested already for that.

 

On 12/29/2023 at 12:55 PM, Pastor Dillon said:

but we have invested so heavily in the o-line that we are struck with what we got

Sunk cost fallacy. If what we have isn't good enough it needs to be fixed regardless of how much is invested. Unless they think Green is suddenly become playable in year 3 that is as big a whole as any we have. I think secondary and interior pass rush slightly bigger needs but our IOL is a big reason our run game and red zone defense have sucked

[Pastor Dillon]

1 hour ago, mse326 said:

 

Sunk cost fallacy. If what we have isn't good enough it needs to be fixed regardless of how much is invested. Unless they think Green is suddenly become playable in year 3 that is as big a whole as any we have. I think secondary and interior pass rush slightly bigger needs but our IOL is a big reason our run game and red zone defense have sucked

We haven’t reached a sunken cost situation yet. They haven’t had a chance to play together. 

[ET80]

I want to see a healthy OL before making any decisions - while I'm pretty sure Kenyon Green isn't really that guy at LG, I really don't know what he's capable of at the position. You also have to think Kendrick Green is a potential option, he's still under contract next season and he's got C/G versatility, so he's going to figure into the competition.

The rookies are a mixed bag - Jarrett Patterson looked really good at C, I think he was one of only two rookie OL who didn't allow a sack. His injury will need to be monitored, but so much about him reminds me of our best pivot ever, Chris Myers: Multi year starter from a school known for developing good OL, not athletically gifted but very smart and very technically sound. At any other OL spot, I prefer rare athleticism - but C is a spot where I prefer a smart technician, someone who can work with the QB and IOL to pick up strays post-snap.

I'm not opposed to picking someone up, but I think we should have a strong comp with the following guys jockeying for PT:

LG: Kenyon/Kendrick/Scruggs

OC: Patterson/Scruggs/Kendrick

RG: Mason/Kendrick/Scruggs

Start your best three, regardless of seniority, contract or draft status. 

(I didn't include Tytus Howard here, because this year really confirmed Howard simply isn't a G).

[mse326]

3 minutes ago, Pastor Dillon said:

We haven’t reached a sunken cost situation yet. They haven’t had a chance to play together. 

I'm out on Green. Absolutely abysmal. If they think Scruggs and Patterson are it then fine, I did say we have slightly bigger needs. But the whole we invested too much already isn't a good argument. 

[lumberjackchris]

1 hour ago, mse326 said:

I'm out on Green. Absolutely abysmal. If they think Scruggs and Patterson are it then fine, I did say we have slightly bigger needs. But the whole we invested too much already isn't a good argument. 

While the OL isn’t great, it’s not as pressing as some other needs. There’s a 5 man combo in there that’ll run block well enough. 

[Patrick66]

There are a handful of centers/guards that we should take a long, hard, look at with our first pick.  We may even be able to get one with our second pick but, to me, the IOL remains our biggest concern.  We need to keep CJ safe and healthy and let's remember that he is LETHAL when he has plenty of time to throw.  

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Taliese-Fuaga-OL-OregonState

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Cooper-Beebe-OL-KansasState

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Sedrick-VanPran-OL-Georgia

https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Jackson-Powers-Johnson-OL-Oregon

[ET80]

On 1/1/2024 at 7:51 PM, lumberjackchris said:

On 1/1/2024 at 6:36 PM, mse326 said:

I'm out on Green. Absolutely abysmal. If they think Scruggs and Patterson are it then fine, I did say we have slightly bigger needs. But the whole we invested too much already isn't a good argument. 

While the OL isn’t great, it’s not as pressing as some other needs. There’s a 5 man combo in there that’ll run block well enough. 

This is kind of my take as well. Somewhere between IR and the active roster, there's a competent OL - you need to see what you have, even if you know one guy who didn't make it is a lost cause. 

I'm also of the mindset that if you're drafting a IOL in the first 2/3 rounds, you need to find a sure thing - drafting another Kenyon Green would be a bigger disaster than Green himself at this point. Non-premium positions in the first NEED to hit, and missing on two in three years? That's crippling your entire team. If Nick Caserio moves down with picks and scores an extra mid rounder (which is a play in his draft day playbook) I'm all for a dart throw with a 4th or 5th.

I'm also thinking a veteran might be a smarter option - rookies across the line need time to acclimate, you're not getting a good IOK on day 1 in just about every instance (Patterson is the exception for the most part). Rookie OL look less and less ready for the NFL nowadays, across the entire league. It's not like good G/C are commanding a ton as free agents - Andrus Peat and Connor Williams might have a market, but you're not blowing a full amount on these guys even in a bidding war. 

[Pastor Dillon]

19 hours ago, ET80 said:

I want to see a healthy OL before making any decisions - while I'm pretty sure Kenyon Green isn't really that guy at LG, I really don't know what he's capable of at the position. You also have to think Kendrick Green is a potential option, he's still under contract next season and he's got C/G versatility, so he's going to figure into the competition.

The rookies are a mixed bag - Jarrett Patterson looked really good at C, I think he was one of only two rookie OL who didn't allow a sack. His injury will need to be monitored, but so much about him reminds me of our best pivot ever, Chris Myers: Multi year starter from a school known for developing good OL, not athletically gifted but very smart and very technically sound. At any other OL spot, I prefer rare athleticism - but C is a spot where I prefer a smart technician, someone who can work with the QB and IOL to pick up strays post-snap.

I'm not opposed to picking someone up, but I think we should have a strong comp with the following guys jockeying for PT:

LG: Kenyon/Kendrick/Scruggs

OC: Patterson/Scruggs/Kendrick

RG: Mason/Kendrick/Scruggs

Start your best three, regardless of seniority, contract or draft status. 

(I didn't include Tytus Howard here, because this year really confirmed Howard simply isn't a G).

Didn’t myers miss an entire season and Greg Mancz replaced him and started 16 games and like never started again lol 

[Pastor Dillon]

19 hours ago, mse326 said:

I'm out on Green. Absolutely abysmal. If they think Scruggs and Patterson are it then fine, I did say we have slightly bigger needs. But the whole we invested too much already isn't a good argument. 

We have invested too much and still don’t know the return, that’s the argument. If we knew that we didn’t have a LG and C of the future in some combo of Green, Green, Scruggs or Patterson then I wouldn’t care to keep investing. But when he you have a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder who both still have potential, you don’t burn another 1st or 2nd round pick on the position. If we have made up our minds on them then go for it. 

[Patrick66]

10 hours ago, Pastor Dillon said:

If we knew that we didn’t have a LG and C of the future in some combo of Green, Green, Scruggs or Patterson

I doubt that any of them are going to be "good" NFL guards or centers.  Scruggs was way over-drafted, in my view.  If possible, I would like to see us sign a quality center through FA and draft one of the guys I listed above.  We gotta protect CJ.  A great offensive line makes everyone else on the offense better.