Debbie (dcash4) Downer: The Off-season that Meh'ed.

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

There are plenty of guys that will go in Rounds 3-5, that are projected to succeed in the NFL.  The Center postion is devalued during the draft, which is well known. 

And for all that talk of 3 1st round centers that could go you only had one go in Graham Barton. And a bunch of the teams behind us that were tabbed to maybe take one passed.  Dallas, Philadelphia, Green Bay, Carolina.  Looking at RD2, Carolina and GB are still out there.  Philadelphia too.  But even at that it's deep as you say.

[Chieferific]

14 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And for all that talk of 3 1st round centers that could go you only had one go in Graham Barton. And a bunch of the teams behind us that were tabbed to maybe take one passed.  Dallas, Philadelphia, Green Bay, Carolina.  Looking at RD2, Carolina and GB are still out there.  Philadelphia too.  But even at that it's deep as you say.

JPJ seemed like a 1st rd lock less than a month ago but he really cooled as the draft approached. We know fans and "experts" don't really know what the coaches and GMs are thinking. I wasn't shocked only Barton went in the first. I would have been shocked if he didn't. 

[Dcash4]

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

...as we've all been trying to point out, this has been addressed via the draft...

To be fair, yet to be seen in terms of this quote. Is Broderick Jones at RT or LT? We just drafted a guy who has played over 2000 snaps at LT and no snaps on the right side as far as I am aware. 

Both guys have been left tackles. Jones said it's his more natural spot. Someone's getting moved. I just hope they don't screw with development. If Jones is the RT, leave him. If it's Troy, leave him. 

I am very happy with the draft pick. Now it's onto development. We haven't show a great feel for that with this coaching staff. 

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Actually, they've noted on a few occasions, the need for a faster outside CB, which his 4.32 speed does 'check' a box. Plus, it's been reported that Tomlin has followed his career, and was interested in Jackson during his draft year...

Speed and skill are not the same thing. Glad we got speed, but John Ross had a terrible NFL career. 

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

$13M Guaranteed on a 3 year contract is big money??  Maybe 10 years ago...

You mean $13.6M on a one year deal. If not, then you mean $13.6/m per year up to 3. 

FYI, that ranks 5th at the position. 

Go back up to what I read. I do not value that position. We had a good thing going last year where we pieced together 3 guys for $3M less than Queen's deal. 

And that's the meat on the bone part. We spent more money at the position for a single player than a group of dudes we pieced together for less the year before. Injuries ruined that position, not the guys they acquired. 

Me - DCASH4 - my opinion is that you could have pieced together the position again for less (Josey Jewell, Jordan Hicks, Devin White (not a fan), or Willie Gay Jr) and spent the other cash on a secondary guy like CGJ who would knock the necessity for NCB and S off the board while supplanting anything you feel like you lose with Queen in the middle. 

So, meat on the bone: We signed a big contract (for the position) at a spot I don't value when we likely could have gotten similar production and added another player (or used that cash towards a bigger upgrade like Aiyuk or Sutton). 

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Plus, trading a 7th for a 6th, and the CB you keep trying to discredit, so that's 'no compensation'??

We could have gotten better compensation. It's all in what I said up in the OP. Similar players to Jackson available in free agency (please check the charting in the links provided), which he may have found himself in a day or 2 later anyway. 

The Chiefs were rumored to have interest in DJ. Would they have sent us a 4th or 5th? That would be better and could go towards a drafted receiver to replace DJ or towards a trade for Sutton. Heck we used DJ to trade for a Corner....did you see what the Chiefs got back for Sneed?! Could we have sent DJ and a 4th (or later?) to the Chiefs a locked up corner for the next 5 years? Dunno...

Again, meat on the bone: what we got, I think we could have gotten better. 

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Do you think that the, what 5-6 hour meeting between Smith and Wilson, upon his visit, didn't adress any potential pitfalls in that area??  Surely, you don't believe that you know better than our HC/OC, on what our incoming QBs will or won't be able to to handle from Smith's offensive system???

I am not sure how to respond to this. Look at the way those two play the QB position and the way Smith runs a game. It's not a match made in heaven. I'm not saying it CAN'T or WON'T work, but their styles are very different. 

I don't know what to tell you @Ward4HOF We DO NOT have to agree. I love what Khan has done in his 2 years and stated many times he would crush the draft. But I don't think we did as much as we could have. I do not agree with your "upgrade" list. The best things we did, IMO, was land the 2 QBs at a ridiculous rate -- and there is likely a better chance than not that neither on on the roster next year (in part, because they are BOTH here). Heck, they set up Queens contract where if he isn't a pro bowl/all pro guy he is likely out too. Donte Jackson's on an expiring himself, quiet honestly if he was even just on a 2 year deal I'd feel slightly better, but he isn't. 

So our best moves are going to come via the draft, again where I think they kill it. But I think we had opportunity to do more than check a few boxes through better compensation for trades, through other players with a multi-year outlook, or through developmental paths being set in motion. Feel free to disagree, but I am happy to share my thoughts. 

[Ward4HOF]

2 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

You mean $13.6M on a one year deal. If not, then you mean $13.6/m per year up to 3. 

FYI, that ranks 5th at the position. 

Go back up to what I read. I do not value that position. We had a good thing going last year where we pieced together 3 guys for $3M less than Queen's deal.

"Patrick Queen signed a 3 year, $41,000,000 contract with the Pittsburgh Steelers, including a $11,590,000 signing bonus, $13,840,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $13,666,667."

And so, because you don't value the position, it's okay to throw substandard players at the problem, but heaven forbid we bring in #2CB, who graded out as 'average' last year, which, BTW, is an improvement.  And it's been widely reported that our WR was 'unhappy', to put it mildly, after putting up his lowest output of his career, and you expect us to get a better return on the investment?  700 yds and 5 TDs, I believe??  And you expected more than getting an average starting CB, who they have liked, and an almost 2 round (52 slots) improvement of draft position (2nd pick of the 6th Rd for the 20th pick in the 7th Rd, valued at 19.2 pts, or roughly, it's like trading for pick 181 by itself. (5th pick of the 6th Rd. -  much closer to a 5th than a 7th...) I think you are valuing Diontae more than the rest of the league did.

4 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

and spent the other cash on a secondary guy like CGJ who would knock the necessity for NCB and S off the board while supplanting anything you feel like you lose with Queen in the middle. 

...or, as I mentioned, we could just sign Peterson back for that NCB role, which is still a very real possibility; would you have rather just kept Peterson, just in case we don't fill that need via the draft??  I'd rather Queen/Peterson (or draft pick) that CGJ coming back from a torn pec and, well, any of the ILBs you listed.  So, yep we disagree, but not sure how one is considered 'leaving meat on the bone', when we haven't even finished the draft yet, and thus, not even a quarter the way through the part of the off-season that we are able to sign talent to the team? 

What a good number of posters are trying to convey to you is, that your statements are a bit premature; why not wait until the entire 'picture has been painted', before accusing Khan of essentially, neglecting to perform his duties properly.  It seems as if you want all the answers now, and are unwilling to wait to see how this all shakes out. It's not that I, and others, don't think you are entitled to an opinion (at least, I speak for myself on that, only, I guess), but it's of my opinion, that we should give Khan the benefit of the doubt, until we get to the start of the season.  If it was just a case of you not like a don't like a specific move or two, then that's one thing, but to accuse Khan of, essentially, not doing his job properly, well, at least for me, I think that's not entirely fair.

 

 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

your statements are a bit premature

I’m gonna skip the rest because it’s pointless to continue the back and forth. Why is us premature to say I didn’t like the free agency period? I see the off-season as three separate parts: free agency, draft, and post draft. I 100% believe (and have said as much multiple times now) that they will kill it and get an A+ in draft and post draft. Why is it so odd to believe they could have done better in free agency, specifically when i think as a team building for the future there's a chance only 1 player (not counting punter) is any sort of impact player past this season (and it’s largely because of the cash owed rather than talent)? 

If we get to next season and neither of the QBs are back (realistic), Patrick Queen is cut to save $10M (realistic), and the best we have to show for this free agency period is Elliot on a cheap deal, a punter, and depth at a position that needs high end talent in Lowry…I’m gonna feel fairly justified. 

Like, I’m sorry man but this #2 CB you keep talking about is on an expiring deal AND TOOK A PAY CUT to play here. That’s not super encouraging to the long term nature of the relationship. We loved that player so much…we said he couldn’t play here unless he cut is salary in half. 

Again…you don’t have to agree. But this has nothing — NOTHING — to do with the idea that Khan has been bad. I 100% think the opposite. I just think this section of the off-season left something to be desired. 

2 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

not doing his job properly

Said it above but just to reiterate, I think Khan has done a fantastic job through 2 years…but this is a HARD sport to even bat .300 in. So I’m also aware that things likely won’t be perfect and things won’t go our way. 

But apparently though our conversations I’m understanding I’m wrong there. Khan has been and will only ever be perfect. So my bad I guess. 

Edited April 26 by Dcash4

[Ward4HOF]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:15 PM, Dcash4 said:

I’m gonna skip the rest because it’s pointless to continue the back and forth.

Wow...okay, that's fine--I won't bother reading/commenting on anything beyond this statement., since it's "pointless" to continue the debate, apparently.

[warfelg]

2 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Wow...okay, that's fine--I won't bother reading/commenting on anything beyond this statement., since it's "pointless" to continue the debate, apparently.

I’m waiting for the complaint to drop this morning. And I’ll admit I made it a touch further than you but hit my stopping point early when “I see the offseason as three separate parts” came up because I’ve never seen that put that way before. GMs and coaches don’t see it that way. When I would be unhappy that we would go into the draft with such a glaring 1st round hole I got the “it’s ok there’s a plan” and now it’s “oh it’s separate parts”?

Anywho. At this point there’s no dog in the fight left. This team is building to something better rather than being happy tiddling along hoping they can break through. Got two QBs on the roster with something to prove, a mean and nasty OL that needs to gel and mature, two really good RBs, and three pass catchers who will eat on PA passes, and a bunch of speedsters to get downfield. The defense is in good shape and wasn’t the problem at all. In fact I feel we upgraded on the weak spot of CB2 should Jackson be healthy. 

To each their own I guess. For many of us that felt like we were spinning tires the last 18ish months as been awesome. 

[Dcash4]

4 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

fine--I won't bother reading/commenting on anything beyond this statement., since it's "pointless" to continue the debate, apparently.

My use of the word pointless had nothing to do with ignoring what you said or not reading what you took the time to write. But that this point after 3 or 4 back and forth where do you wanna go from here? It’s been said now — we don’t agree. 

I’ve shared my thoughts on the player of Jackson, shared data that suggests was not better than the guys we had that you at telling me is he an upgrade to, and also shared Alex Kozoras write up stating we didn’t do well in the trade value. I’d be happy to share Jon Leyard’s pod episode where he talks about not understanding the trade or the fit too, if you would like. I’d be happy to dig up Ben Solak’s “buyer beware” segment where Patrick Queen made the list . It was either Mays or Tice that questioned that as well. Im Guessing it won’t change much. 

So there’s plenty of well respected people out there and data to back the parts of the off-season that I question…but I guess I’m just wrong because I said it here. 

Calling it pointless to continue was my way to try to skip the back and forth and address that it seems you guys think I believe Khan has sucked. That’s the furthest thing from the truth. Never meant it to disrespect your opinion as if I didn’t go though it. 

 

[3rivers]

seems like the best and most improved offseason I can remember .  Still a bit left to do, but most of the work has been done.  Thats all we can ask for as fans, and then see how the coaches get the most productivity from the players. 

as it is, many  would say a WR1 or 1.b and CB would completer the offseason needs.  Khan might get one of those in a trade and then in turn be set at WR1/1.b for the next several years as well. 

for me though, the fact the OL is set once the proper 5 OL are out there  is what matters most. It's been over  5 years since the OL was good, and has actually been bad often the last 5 years.  This will be much better for us fans with a legit run game, QB thats not injured all the time and no mitch factor either