2024 Training Camp

[vike daddy]

Vikings quarterbacks Sam Darnold and J.J. McCarthy have shown the ability to extend plays and create favorable results during training camp. Darnold and McCarthy have taken turns completing off-schedule, scrambling throws – to the glee of Vikings Head Coach Kevin O'Connell, who commented Tuesday on his quarterbacks' ability to do that.

O'Connell: "It's been fun to watch. It's been good for our defense, too, watching those guys plaster in coverage and try to compete all the way through the down. The best scenario could either be a scramble, chance to make a play off-schedule or a throwaway and save the down,. They've demonstrated the ability to do both with their athleticism, and still remaining passers as they get outside the pocket and attack."

Aaron Jones: "If you're able to do that it makes you that much more dangerous. The play is never done. It's never dead."

https://www.vikings.com/news/jj-mccarthy-sam-darnold-quarterbacks-building-connection-testing-defense

[Ozzy]

With the injuries to Tillery serious or not, I sure hope they give Jihad Ward a shot at that down DE spot, he is super versatile, has experience being a 3/4 OLB, is 6-5 285 so is big enough I feel and has far more versatility than say Bullard or Tillery for that matter because he can drop in coverage if asked to do so.

 

Hopefully Ward is not hidden as a backup 3/4 OLB and gets some play in that DE spot or even DT if they go with more of a 4/3 front four down DL.  The guy has had 13 sacks in the last four years with three different teams and coaching staffs.  He deserves some playing time, especially if James Lynch or Jonah Williams are not great in their roles as backup or even starting 3/4 DE.

 

Very surprised to see Risner is not listed as a starter, curious if Brandel is really that good or if they are just hoping he is that good.  

 

And Harrison Phillips along with Bryon Murphy are two of the most important players on the roster, because with each the backup to them is really not there.  Sure they have backups but there is no DT on the roster even close to Phillips honestly, and Murphy there is no CB better than him on the roster and it is not even close.  Hopefully those two can stay healthy this year.

[swede700]

20 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Very surprised to see Risner is not listed as a starter, curious if Brandel is really that good or if they are just hoping he is that good. 

Brandel is a significantly better run-blocker than Risner. 

[Ozzy]

17 minutes ago, swede700 said:

Brandel is a significantly better run-blocker than Risner. 

Based on what?  Some stat that is really statistically irrelevant based on the crazy small snap total?

 

 

Risner started 11 games last year and played 746 snaps, and the number is that low because he only became a Viking well before the season started.

 

Brandel started 2 games 163 snaps played last year.

 

 

 

The year before that Brandel had 275 snaps at OT mostly a career high for him in a backup role after injuries happened to others, that same year on the Denver Broncos Risner played 967 snaps, year before that 832 snaps and the year before that 999.

 

 

So until Brandel is a consistent starting over a full NFL season, not sure one can call him better at anything until he can prove doing so consistently over a full season against NFL starters.  Sure it will be great if Brandel is this awesome guard but at least Risner is consistent and proven as a starter, and last time I checked allowing zero sacks from the IOL position is a good thing, something Risner did last year in way more snaps than Brandel ever had.   Risner had almost 5 times as many snaps last year than Brandel had, so hard to really compare the two against live starter NFL competition. .  

[swede700]

That is the common refrain I've heard from various sources.  Risner isn't a good run-blocker and Brandel is significantly better at it.

[wcblack34]

The people who see Risner and Brandel play and practice each day have come to the conclusion that Brandel, Risner and Ingram are all on a very similar plane. Their approach to Risner's contract says as much. The fact that 31 other teams also passed on him, despite an affordable contract, likely view him similarly. If KOC thinks Risner deserves a starting spot, and fits what they want to do, he'll get one.

Because Risner was so good at pass blocking, it stands to reason that the coaching staff thinks that Brandel is much better at run blocking and that the drop off in pass blocking will be offset by that. 

[vike daddy]

34 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Based on what?  Some stat that is really statistically irrelevant based on the crazy small snap total?

probably based on what the coaches see from each players' performance.

if Risner was better, he'd obviously be starting without question. it's not like there's some plot to hold him back, to our own detriment.

[Ozzy]

4 hours ago, wcblack34 said:

The people who see Risner and Brandel play and practice each day have come to the conclusion that Brandel, Risner and Ingram are all on a very similar plane. Their approach to Risner's contract says as much. The fact that 31 other teams also passed on him, despite an affordable contract, likely view him similarly. If KOC thinks Risner deserves a starting spot, and fits what they want to do, he'll get one.

Because Risner was so good at pass blocking, it stands to reason that the coaching staff thinks that Brandel is much better at run blocking and that the drop off in pass blocking will be offset by that. 

Maybe Risner is that bad and Brandel clearly beat him out, sorry I am not at all of the practices.   It is just odd to me to totally write off a guy that has started 73 games in his five year NFL career, and have a guy who has been in the NFL since 2020 in Brandel and only started 5 times in that time span and never been a full season starter and has never even started 10 games much less 17 games.

 

Maybe he is clearly that much better right now but I will believe it when I see it over the long haul and not just filling in every now and again.  Maybe the transition to guard improves Brandel that much because honestly at tackle he was never super impressive and even a guard last year Risner did take his place once he arrived and held that spot the rest of the year.  

 

Brandel is two years younger than Risner and maybe Risner's injuries are that big of an issue despite staying healthy last year.  To me it is odd for a guy drafted in 2020 to just now be maybe cracking the starting lineup, that is sure a long time to "develop". 

 

Darrisaw started right away when healthy as a rookie, Ingram started right away, Risner started right away, O'Neill pretty much started right away when healthy, and Bradbury started right away.  None took four years to crack the lineup, but maybe Brandel is just that much improved over that long time span.  

 

Edited August 8 by Ozzy

[swede700]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Maybe Risner is that bad and Brandel clearly beat him out, sorry I am not at all of the practices.   It is just odd to me to totally write off a guy that has started 73 games in his five year NFL career, and have a guy who has been in the NFL since 2020 in Brandel and only started 5 times in that time span and never been a full season starter and has never even started 10 games much less 17 games.

 

Maybe he is clearly that much better right now but I will believe it when I see it over the long haul and not just filling in every now and again.  Maybe the transition to guard improves Brandel that much because honestly at tackle he was never super impressive and even a guard last year Risner did take his place once he arrived and held that spot the rest of the year.  

 

Brandel is two years younger than Risner and maybe Risner's injuries are that big of an issue despite staying healthy last year.  To me it is odd for a guy drafted in 2020 to just now be maybe cracking the starting lineup, that is sure a long time to "develop". 

 

Darrisaw started right away when healthy as a rookie, Ingram started right away, Risner started right away, O'Neill pretty much started right away when healthy, and Bradbury started right away.  None took four years to crack the lineup, but maybe Brandel is just that much improved over that long time span.  

 

While I understand it, I think it should have been made clear that Risner had some significant deficiencies when the Broncos just flat out let him go and signed someone else in FA (Ben Powers, I believe) to replace him.  I think it has to be more than just injuries. 

As far as Brandel, the blocking system he was drafted to is a little different than what is being run now, as it was more of a run-based blocking system than a pass-blocking system, so that may have a lot to do with the time it took him to develop.  Remember Joe Berger?  It took him 5 years in the NFL before he became a full-time starter.

[Ozzy]

45 minutes ago, swede700 said:

While I understand it, I think it should have been made clear that Risner had some significant deficiencies when the Broncos just flat out let him go and signed someone else in FA (Ben Powers, I believe) to replace him.  I think it has to be more than just injuries. 

As far as Brandel, the blocking system he was drafted to is a little different than what is being run now, as it was more of a run-based blocking system than a pass-blocking system, so that may have a lot to do with the time it took him to develop.  Remember Joe Berger?  It took him 5 years in the NFL before he became a full-time starter.

Kevin O'Connell has been the HC the last two seasons, if Brandel was so perfect for the system then why was he not a starter before?  Why did they even need to bring in Risner last year if Brandel was this superior?  Why did Brandel not beat out Risner last year?

 

Joe Berger, sure but give me 50 more examples of a guy not starting any real length of time for 3-4 seasons to start their career then becoming a consistent full time starter at IOL and then maybe that can be a trend.  Granted even Berger once he started in that 5th season for a good amount of games, that was just because of injury.  The next three years after that he only started 9 times in three seasons.  His only consistent starting experience in back to back to back years was with Minnesota in his last three seasons of his career.  

 

Just seems odd to me if Brandel is this amazing player why did he not start last year or before that under the current GM and head coach they had in 2023 and 2022.  

 

We will see if he is indeed that good, and they need it because honestly outside of these two they have basically zero proven depth at OG.  They need Jurgens to be legit and Feeney to as well but at least Feeney has started plenty.  Began his career with 9 starts, then 16, 16 and 16 again.  Clearly injuries have been an issue with him of late.  

 

 

And I must say for Brandel, the Vikings provide very little in terms of legit DTs he goes up against, Phillips is basically the only one.  He will be facing far better DT talent throughout the league than want Minnesota can provide in practice.  Vikings have struggled big time with IOL pressure over the past few years, but people seem to forget that pretty easily.

Edited August 8 by Ozzy

[VikeManDan]

Is it at all possible that Brandel could, ya know, improve?

A lot to shake out still but the staff seems to have Brandel as the front-runner for the LG spot. Is having Risner as depth such a bad thing if Brandel holds onto the job? Seems like a win-win to me.

[Ozzy]

46 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

Is it at all possible that Brandel could, ya know, improve?

A lot to shake out still but the staff seems to have Brandel as the front-runner for the LG spot. Is having Risner as depth such a bad thing if Brandel holds onto the job? Seems like a win-win to me.

Sure if Brandel is as good as some around here say, that is a very good thing considering how weak the OL was last year especially in regards to backups.  

 

But all of the best OLs in the NFL, with some of the best OL coaches in the NFL, Eagles with Stoutland being the best OL coach in the NFL.  If anyone can develop guys it is him, but all of the starters on those units started either as a rookie or as a 2nd year player in the NFL, and not just spot starting they were the starter and won the job.

 

Eagles
Lions
Texans
Browns
Chiefs
Packers
Chargers 

 

etc...

 

So it is not that common for an offensive lineman to develop over four years in the NFL, and be drafted in 2020 and now all of a sudden be a 17 game starter in 2024.  He will be a big exception, he is not the rule and it does not happen much at all.  If a player is good they play on the OL and start their 1st or 2nd year.  

 

All of the All Pro OL in this league, they all played and started right away in the league for a reason.

[Sir Fobos]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

So it is not that common for an offensive lineman to develop over four years in the NFL, and be drafted in 2020 and now all of a sudden be a 17 game starter in 2024.  He will be a big exception, he is not the rule and it does not happen much at all.

Risner is not that good.

 

It's not a high bar for Brandel to reach.

[Ozzy]

19 minutes ago, Sir Fobos said:

Risner is not that good.

 

It's not a high bar for Brandel to reach.

Risner was better than Cleveland I would say, and I still would argue if Brandel is so damn good why was he not a starter over Risner last season?  When he had all of training camp and was the starting G but then Risner came in without the benefits of training camp and right away Brandel went out....

 

The Vikings have had awful guard combinations of late, Cleveland at times really got pushed around, Dozier was terrible at times, Elflein was awful at times, Kline was always bad really.  Remmers was a joke most of his time especially at guard.  Easton and Berger was solid, Fusco ok along with Boone and Charlie Johnson at times. but honestly none of them are all that great

 

Risner/Ingram
Cleveland/Ingram
Cleveland/Udoh
Cleveland/Dozier
Elflein/Kline
Elflein/Remmers
Easton/Berger
Fusco/Boone
Fusco/M. Harris
C. Johnson/Berger
 

 

But that is 10 seasons, would be nice to get a solid group and honestly I am not totally sold long term with Ingram but at least he plays as a young player and does not have to develop on the bench in four seasons to become a starter.  So yeah when a guy like Risner comes along I think it is a plus and can help the unit a good deal.  

Of course none are All Pro level players or even solid starters honestly across that 10 year period, so that is an issue.  Patrick Mahomes does not have Thuney and more importantly drafted Humphrey and Trey Smith, there is no way they win as much as they have without that great IOL protecting Mahomes where it matters most. 

 

 

[Sir Fobos]

17 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

...and I still would argue if Brandel is so damn good...

 

 

You'll have to take that up with the coaches that have been running Brandel with the 1st team and singing his praises. The fans are just sitting back and cautiously enjoying the pleasant surprise while we wait for this long offseason to be over. If Brandel is out-performing Risner, that is good for the team. So what if it's statistically improbable? Just roll with it, man.