VigilantZombie Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said: This is a very interesting discussion. I still maintain a FS is our biggest need but I think I've been convinced that attempting to get a NT will help the defense. I am a fan of switching to a 4-2-5 nickel defense. They don't have the ideal look but Tuitt and Heyward are strong pass rushers, as is Hargrave. If we can get a strong NT to plug in there it'll really help. Maybe trying a flyer on Ngata or another FA will be the best way to address this need. There's no doubt that FS is our biggest need and based on everything I've heard people say, I'm not sure we don't all agree that it is. Having said that, I feel very strongly we need a "Casey Hampton" mentality in some situations on defense and we don't even have close to that at the moment and that's one of our biggest failures. From a pure logic standpoint the point of a NT is to clog the middle and make it easier for DE's to get off the edge and to the QB or into the backfield after the RB. We simply do not have that happening right now. Does that make NT our biggest need? Absolutely not but I think it's our 3rd biggest need behind Safety and ILB. I also feel if we're going to draft a LB in the first round it has to be an ILB. I dont' think you can justify spending another 1st round choice on an OLB unless it's an absolute steal. I get that you can't base what you do right now on what you have done in the past in that, Jarvis Jones, TJ Watt, and Bud Dupree is no reason to pass on Von Miller (exaggerated example) but you can't keep spending the first round pick on the same position and expect to get better at other positions either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 50 minutes ago, warfelg said: I can almost guarantee a 4-2-5 with Tuitt and Heyward on the edges will end in disaster. They can collapse an edge. OT's are athletic enough to keep up with them. I strongly disagree. On passing situations, they are adequate enough to get a pass rush and both strong and quick enough to get up field if necessary and force a play inside. You don't use these guys for that specifically. Yes that would be a potential weakness in the defense, but that is also why you want athletic and fast flowing LB's to get to the ball carrier. We also don't have the big strong, solid tackling CB's like Ike Taylor who could attack ball carriers with abandon. His weakness later in his career was pass coverage, but he was more than solid in run coverage. Haden and Burns are average and below average in tackling RB's in space. Every player has strengths and weaknesses. Again, the issue we are trying to stop is teams gashing us on first and second downs or in obvious run situations like third and one. Some teams we simply couldn't stop because we didn't have enough beef. This is now a game of specialist. You don't have players that fit every single situation against every single team. Against a big stout OL's that are run dominant, yes having a big strong stout DL's like Heyward and Cam on the end with a big NG inside and a penetrating DT would help us clog up the middle and keep us out of second down and three. We need disipline on this defense from the standpoint of staying in your lanes, filling your gaps and doing YOUR job. We see defensive schemes break down all the time because one or two guys try to compensate for someone else not being able to do their job. On the play you showed, this is a prime example of that. Bottom line regardless of scheme or situational personnel, you need players to execute and coaches, to put them in the right situations to increase their chances to be successful. You are correct, that most OT's are athletic enough to keep up with them on the edge, but they are doing their job as DE's getting up field. The pressure then could come from up the gut with Hargraves who is good at penetrating and disrupting if given that chance. It would be nice if we could make offense have to adjust because we are now disrupting their game plan. We could not force Bortles into becoming a passing QB to have to keep up with our offense scoring 42 points. We could not force Chicago into becoming a passing team by taking the run away. We played to teams strengths. We did not take them out of their strength and force them into their weakness or our strength (not that this defense had many strengths late in the year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said: I strongly disagree. On passing situations, they are adequate enough I honestly don't nee to go much further. Our pass rush as is could be called "adequate enough". I'm telling you, Heyward and Tuitt as actual 4-3 DE's would end poorly. Very poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, warfelg said: I honestly don't nee to go much further. Our pass rush as is could be called "adequate enough". I'm telling you, Heyward and Tuitt as actual 4-3 DE's would end poorly. Very poorly. I agree that they would be below average 4-3 DEs . They are perfect for a 3-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, warfelg said: I honestly don't nee to go much further. Our pass rush as is could be called "adequate enough". I'm telling you, Heyward and Tuitt as actual 4-3 DE's would end poorly. Very poorly. I am not suggesting that they switch to a base 4-3 with Cam and Tuitt as every down DE's. We play a base 3-4 and they are best suited for that. If we switched to a 4-3 with them as every down ends, we make them the problem of the defense and not Hargraves. We are trading issues. So that I am clear, I am suggesting that in certain situations and against certain teams, let them play as DE's when the defense goes Big Nickel. Instead of having Watt and Dupree on the edge, use Tuitt and Cam against teams like the Jags and Bears who like to run and are smash mouth minded. This is something that can be added to our defense. We are and will continue to be a base 3-4, hence, get a base 3-4 NG. Period. The NG is going to be a little out of place when you go Big Nickel against running teams. You don't put him in against quicker OL's who we can match up against. You keep the standard Nickel with Watt and Dupree on the edge and Tuitt and Cam or even Hargraves on occasion inside. I never suggested an every down conversion to a 4-3 with our current personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 If you prefer a NT, I refer you to this years FA class as opposed to the draft: Ngata, Bennie Logan, Poe, and a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, warfelg said: If you prefer a NT, I refer you to this years FA class as opposed to the draft: Ngata, Bennie Logan, Poe, and a few others. Sheldon Richardson as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, wwhickok said: There's no doubt that FS is our biggest need and based on everything I've heard people say, I'm not sure we don't all agree that it is. Having said that, I feel very strongly we need a "Casey Hampton" mentality in some situations on defense and we don't even have close to that at the moment and that's one of our biggest failures. From a pure logic standpoint the point of a NT is to clog the middle and make it easier for DE's to get off the edge and to the QB or into the backfield after the RB. We simply do not have that happening right now. Does that make NT our biggest need? Absolutely not but I think it's our 3rd biggest need behind Safety and ILB. I also feel if we're going to draft a LB in the first round it has to be an ILB. I dont' think you can justify spending another 1st round choice on an OLB unless it's an absolute steal. I get that you can't base what you do right now on what you have done in the past in that, Jarvis Jones, TJ Watt, and Bud Dupree is no reason to pass on Von Miller (exaggerated example) but you can't keep spending the first round pick on the same position and expect to get better at other positions either. other than Watt, they have proven they can't draft/develop OLBs, which is where UFA helps (but costs). It's also the main culprit of the D as far as the pass rush goes. I agree that there is a problem with mitchell and burns but what is the team going to be able to do if they sign bell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeler Hitman Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, 3rivers said: other than Watt, they have proven they can't draft/develop OLBs, which is where UFA helps (but costs). It's also the main culprit of the D as far as the pass rush goes. I agree that there is a problem with mitchell and burns but what is the team going to be able to do if they sign bell? Bell will get paid. Hopefully not $18 million, but he is needed and has shown his value to the team. Hopefully he gets used better in Fitchner's offense and we get him the ball in the red zone more. To answer your question, through cuts and deal restructures. Mitchell and Wilcox cut to name a few and restructure McDonald's deal to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said: Sheldon Richardson as well. I think he's going to cost too much and is a rich mans Hargrave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Basically we need Jacksonville's defense plus our offense. 10 top 10 picks in the last 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 20 hours ago, jebrick said: Basically we need Jacksonville's defense plus our offense. 10 top 10 picks in the last 10 years. I think we need to draft better on D or if not, then sign UFA's on D. And sign a CB as good as AJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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