The Pro Football Hall of Fame: Both Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer Deserve Consideration

[Bob Fox]

Here is my latest piece as to why both Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer deserve consideration to be enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

https://greenbaybobfox.wordpress.com/2018/02/14/the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-both-boyd-dowler-and-ron-kramer-deserve-consideration/

[Shanedorf]

Thanks for the write up

Man, are they gonna have a tough road to get in. Even with guru Gosselin in their corner. None of the voters saw them play and most of the fans who did aren't on social media pimping their cases. And neither of them has a Q-score like Jerry Kramer

I wish them well, but unless the HOF open the doors with the amnesty plan...I'm not envisioning another Lombardi player getting in

[Bob Fox]

My pleasure, Shanedorf. Yes, it will be very difficult for both to be enshrined in Canton, especially Ron Kramer. However, Boyd brought up a great point with me when he talked about his numbers compared to Lynn Swann's. Dowler actually had more than 100 catches in his career compared to Swann.  Both Dowler and Swann were money in the postseason. And if No. 86 doesn't get hurt in Super Bowl I, he probably has the big day, not Max McGee.

[ricky]

The problem is, as Shanedorf put it so well, is that the voters are simply too young to have seen either of these guys. Will they go back and dig up highlight reels? Do they even exist? Swann indeed was a somewhat dubious pick, but he also had highlight reel, magnificent, monumental catches (plural) in Super Bowls (plural). He was not a big numbers guy, but had enough "flash plays" to get him over the top. Add in the rumored "fact" that many HOF voters are reluctant to put in more Lombardi Packers. This is not an argument against these guys. They were both very, very good. But HOF good? Exceptional for their time period? To me, a HOFer should be someone whose name is mentioned, and you immedidately say, "Yeah, that guy was great!" Neither Kramer nor Dowler fit that description, IMO. And I'm going to be 68 on Sunday, so, yes, I saw them. But remember them as being exceptional? No. Packers HOF will have to be enough for those guys. And that is quite an honor, IMO.

[Bob Fox]

Rick Gosselin, Seniors Selection Committee member for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, posted a story about this situation on his Talk of Fame site. He referenced me and linked my Hall of Fame article about Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer in the piece.

http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/is-12-enough-for-the-lombardi-packers/

[AlexGreen#20]

How many Lombardi Packers do you think deserve to be in?

You have:

Head Coach: Vince Lombardi

Fullback: Jim Taylor

Right Tackle: Forest Gregg

Quarterback: Bart Starr

Inside Linebacker: Ray Nitschke

 Corner Back: Herb Adderley

Defensive End: Willie Davis,

Center: Jim Ringo

Halfback: Paul Hourning

Safety: Willie Wood

Defensive Tackle: Henry Jordan

Outside Linebacker: Dave Robinson

Offensive Guard: Jerry Kramer 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now you're pushing for a Flanker and a Tight End??

Dowler's finish in receiving yards by year: 14th, 21st, 20th, 17th, 8th, 21st, 22nd, 38th, 12th, 10th, 35th, 67th. Guys with no top 5 finishes in receiving yards and 2 two top ten finishes aren't Hall of Famers. He was a low end number one receiver by production for this entire career. In a 12 year career he made two pro bowls. This isn't a HOF guy.

Kramer falls basically in the same boat among Tight Ends. 

 

 

[Bob Fox]

Both Boyd Dowler and (Ron) Kramer were named by the Pro Football Hall of Fame among the best 45 players in the 50th anniversary of the NFL. Plus, Dowler was named All-Decade in the 1960s.They are the only two of the 45 best players in the first 50 years not enshrined in Canton. It was Rick Gosselin who first brought this up. He is a Hall of Fame voter and a member of the Seniors Selection Committee and the Contributors Committee.

If you read my story, then you know the Packers didn't pass too often in the Lombardi era. Less than 20 per game. But come postseason time, Bart Starr has the top passer rating of all time with a 104.8 mark. Starr threw 15 TD passes to just three picks and was 9-1 in the postseason. Dowler caught a third of his TD passes and was money in big games.

I agree with Gosselin. Both Dowler and Kramer at least need to be discussed in the seniors committee room.

[Bob Fox]

Also, I don't know how many of you got to see the Lombardi-era Packers play. I did, plus I was able to attend a few games as well, including the 1967 Western Conference Championship Game between the Los Angeles Rams and the Pack at Milwaukee County Stadium. That was eight days before the "Ice Bowl" game. Anyway, the NFL in the 1960s was completely different than it is compared to today.

Offensive linemen could not use their hands when they blocked. Wide receivers and tight ends were allowed to be mauled at the line of scrimmage and all the way down the field. Helmet-to-helmet hits were legal and there were head-hunters galore in the game back then, as you would see a couple of clothesline tackles every game. Late hits were rarely penalized. It was a really vicious game back then.

That's why Vince Lombardi preached physical football with the Packers and why they were so good running the rock. From 1960 to 1964, the Packers were ranked either first (three times) or second (twice) in rushing in the NFL. Even in 1967, with both Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung gone, and starting RBs Elijah Pitts and Jim Grabowski lost for the season with injuries halfway through the season, the Packers still finished second in the NFL in rushing. But even though they didn't pass often, QB Bart Starr was very good when he needed to, as he led the NFL in passing three times and is the highest rated passer in NFL postseason history. And in the postseason, the guy Starr looked to most was Boyd Dowler.

[AlexGreen#20]

Vince Lombardi had a winning percentage with the packers of .754.

In today's day that's an average of a 12-4 season. 

How is a team with arguably the greatest head coach of all time and 14 hall of famers, only pulling 12-4 seasons? Somebody is overrated here. 

[Bob Fox]

Lombardi's Packers were 9-1 in the postseason. A winning percentage of .900.

The only postseason defeat they had was when, on the last play of the game, Jim Taylor was tackled inside the 10-yard line of the Eagles in the 1960 NFL title game, when the team lost 17-13.

The team won five NFL titles in seven years, including the first two Super Bowls.

They won the two Super Bowls by an average of 22 points, or three touchdowns per game.

Yes, indeed. Somebody HERE is overrated alright.

[Bob Fox]

The team also won three NFL championships in a row from 1965, 1966 and 1967 (plus the first two Super Bowls), the only team in NFL history to ever do that since the playoff era started in the league.

The Packers almost did that twice. The Packers won the NFL title in both 1961 and 1962, but fell short in 1963, even though they had an 11-2-1 record . The eventual 1963 NFL Champs, da Bears were just a tad better, as they had an 11-1-2 record. The Packers played the 1963 season without one of their best players, as HB Paul Hornung was suspended that year for gambling. How good was No. 5? Hornung led the NFL in scoring three straight years from 1959 through 1961, plus won the NFL MVP award in '61. In the 1961 title game, Hornung scored 19 of the team's 37 points, as they blanked the G-Men at then City Stadium.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

2 hours ago, Bob Fox said:

Lombardi's Packers were 9-1 in the postseason. A winning percentage of .900.

The only postseason defeat they had was when, on the last play of the game, Jim Taylor was tackled inside the 10-yard line of the Eagles in the 1960 NFL title game, when the team lost 17-13.

The team won five NFL titles in seven years, including the first two Super Bowls.

They won the two Super Bowls by an average of 22 points, or three touchdowns per game.

Yes, indeed. Somebody HERE is overrated alright.

59: Missed the playoffs

60: 0-1 in playoffs

61: 1-0 in playoffs

62: 1-0 in playoffs

63: Missed the playoffs

64: Missed the playoffs

65: 2-0 in playoffs

66: 2-0 in playoffs

67: 3-0 in playoffs

The team also missed the playoffs 3/9 seasons. How is a team with 14 HOF caliber players and a GOAT coach missing the playoffs in 1/3 of their seasons?

The Packers had a lot of great players. They also had a ton of good players who you seem bound and determined to make into great players. Unless you're trying to make it like the Basketball HOF where everybody just rolls their eyes at all the inclusions of EVERYBODY who played in the 50s and 60s, you're just cheapening the honor for the truly great ones like Starr, Hourning, and Gregg. 

[Bob Fox]

Once again...it was the Pro Football Hall of Fame that named both Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer on their 50th anniversary team. Rick Gosselin wants to bring them both into the seniors committee room for discussion. Rick says that they at least deserve that.  I agree. In terms of Dowler, CB Herb Adderley, another Lombardi Packer in Canton, and who had to cover No. 86 in practice many times, said that Dowler was as good as any receiver in the NFL in the '60s.

By the way, it's spelled Hornung.

 

[Norm]

1 hour ago, Bob Fox said:

Once again...it was the Pro Football Hall of Fame that named both Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer on their 50th anniversary team. Rick Gosselin wants to bring them both into the seniors committee room for discussion. Rick says that they at least deserve that.  I agree. In terms of Dowler, CB Herb Adderley, another Lombardi Packer in Canton, and who had to cover No. 86 in practice many times, said that Dowler was as good as any receiver in the NFL in the '60s.

By the way, it's spelled Hornung.

 

I tried to Google it quick but found nothing right away, do you have a list of this 50th anniversary team?

[Bob Fox]

Norm, I put a link in the story about the 50th anniversary team, but here it is again. This list has been confirmed by Rick Gosselin.