DeCastro-type situation

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, Steeler Hitman said:

That is the conventional thinking.  People still under-estimate the value of the running game.  Yes it is a passing league.  Yes teams will not play to your strength.  You put eight in the box, smart teams will try to pass.  You go Nickel or Dime on early downs, teams will try to gash you with the run.  My questions is why do you have to always do things conventionally?  There is a specific type (size, speed, hands, arm length, vertical jump, etc)  for all positions.  NG's are not supposed to be able to collapse the pocket. You should be able to run on 235 lb LB'ers. You don't have to go so rogue in your thinking that you try to reinvent some things, but rather alter them.  Tuitt and Cam are 3-4 type DE's that usually kick inside so that you can get traditional edge rushers to rush.  Cam and Tuitt are capable "on occasion" to play DE in some situations.  We don't do it because they don't fit "the conventional" Edge rusher.  Our defense could not stop the run (inside or off tackle).  Teams knew what we were vulnerable to and exploited it.  I would argue that they did this because we kept the same personnel and conventional thinking.

Defenses have had success doing things and employing personnel that have not been seen or utilized before.  In the 60's teams like the Chargers and Raiders employed the forward pass to move the ball.  The Steelers started using a guy named Joe Green who would line up over the Center and tilt his body left or right.  The Steelers employed something called the zone blitz where people would blitz from the CB or safety positions, and DL's would drop in coverage. Buddy Ryan came up with a defense he called the 4-6 and I could go on and on.  The point is don't be afraid to do something different and get pigeon-holed into thinking everything must be done this way or that would never work.

Vita Vea is not an ordinary NG.  He can move and do things that guys half his size can't. If you get a special talent, adjust some of your defense to use the skills of that special talent.  Haloti Ngata was a beast early because of all the things he could do.  Would we not have drafted Aaron Donald despite the fact he does not fit the conventional 3-4 player at NG or DE?  We took Javon Hargraves who does not fit as a 3-4 NG or DE.  The problem is we haven't adjusted our defense to match his skills and talents.   Try to make him Casey Hampton and he struggles. Most of us agree with that. 

This has happened a few times. Hood was never suited for the scheme we had, so he had to adjust , Hargraves is out of place here and was a RD3 pick so at least we aren't wasting RD1 picks as such. If Vea is such a player and we draft him, it would be nice to see a solid D along the front again as it has been a few years.  The way the game has changed, I am starting to think better coverage is more important .

As for your comment about being unconventional, innovation is always nice when it works. If it is to happen in todays game, will it be us, or say Gregg Williams base nickel  which could be great if he had some more talent. The broncos had their no fly zone that worked well, 3 excellent cover corners and 2 great edge rushers and the rest was solid too.  The innovation could still be possible, wait and see who does it. Wade should have the Rams ready to make noise, but he also has 2 top tier CB's and a great front 3. 

After watching the SB though, I am starting to think that  good defensive football in the playoffs are history if the opposition has a good-great offence. The rules have given the right of way to the offences to the point where the SB just had the teams go up and down the field at will. Nice that Philly won, but outside of Grahams play, there wasn't much to enjoy as a D minded fan.

I have a lack of interest in the game today is a result , I don't like all the changes but still watch but who knows for how long.  Anyone else feel like this?

[JustPlainNasty]

1 hour ago, Steeler Hitman said:

That is the conventional thinking.  People still under-estimate the value of the running game.  Yes it is a passing league.  Yes teams will not play to your strength.  You put eight in the box, smart teams will try to pass.  You go Nickel or Dime on early downs, teams will try to gash you with the run.  My questions is why do you have to always do things conventionally?  There is a specific type (size, speed, hands, arm length, vertical jump, etc)  for all positions.  NG's are not supposed to be able to collapse the pocket. You should be able to run on 235 lb LB'ers. You don't have to go so rogue in your thinking that you try to reinvent some things, but rather alter them.  Tuitt and Cam are 3-4 type DE's that usually kick inside so that you can get traditional edge rushers to rush.  Cam and Tuitt are capable "on occasion" to play DE in some situations.  We don't do it because they don't fit "the conventional" Edge rusher.  Our defense could not stop the run (inside or off tackle).  Teams knew what we were vulnerable to and exploited it.  I would argue that they did this because we kept the same personnel and conventional thinking.

Defenses have had success doing things and employing personnel that have not been seen or utilized before.  In the 60's teams like the Chargers and Raiders employed the forward pass to move the ball.  The Steelers started using a guy named Joe Green who would line up over the Center and tilt his body left or right.  The Steelers employed something called the zone blitz where people would blitz from the CB or safety positions, and DL's would drop in coverage. Buddy Ryan came up with a defense he called the 4-6 and I could go on and on.  The point is don't be afraid to do something different and get pigeon-holed into thinking everything must be done this way or that would never work.

Vita Vea is not an ordinary NG.  He can move and do things that guys half his size can't. If you get a special talent, adjust some of your defense to use the skills of that special talent.  Haloti Ngata was a beast early because of all the things he could do.  Would we not have drafted Aaron Donald despite the fact he does not fit the conventional 3-4 player at NG or DE?  We took Javon Hargraves who does not fit as a 3-4 NG or DE.  The problem is we haven't adjusted our defense to match his skills and talents.   Try to make him Casey Hampton and he struggles. Most of us agree with that. 

Aaron Donald was a beast, he was only under appreciated due to size. Vea is nowhere near that category based on consistent onfield play. I dont hate on Vea just not excited bout him. I was just as or more inspired by some of the play I saw from Settle, Senat and BJ HIll to name a few. 

[3rivers]

31 minutes ago, JustPlainNasty said:

Aaron Donald was a beast, he was only under appreciated due to size. Vea is nowhere near that category based on consistent onfield play. I dont hate on Vea just not excited bout him. I was just as or more inspired by some of the play I saw from Settle, Senat and BJ HIll to name a few. 

JPN,

 

as of now what would be say, your "reach" mock draft, or "fell to us" mock draft for the first 4 rounds? 

A player such as Settle would be good if we could get play on the field. If Butler stays with that weak nickel, how does Settle get playing time? DB's will play every down, a reason I would prefer a good CB especially since I am not sold on Burns .

ILB, that should be fixed, but Safety is more of a priority or is it? Is our UFA signing good enough?

I gave up on OLB, and expect another season of dupree starting . Hopefully Watt will take over and they will have dupree in coverage or on the sidelines , is't our only hope since they can't draft OLB very well and if OLB isn't good in the draft and no UFA is signed. 

 

[Steeler Hitman]

1 hour ago, JustPlainNasty said:

Aaron Donald was a beast, he was only under appreciated due to size. Vea is nowhere near that category based on consistent onfield play. I dont hate on Vea just not excited bout him. I was just as or more inspired by some of the play I saw from Settle, Senat and BJ HIll to name a few. 

This isn't really about Vea.. I do like him, but I also like a lot of other players as DT/NG types including those that you mentioned. After an earlier mock, you or Warfelg got me to look at a lot of these guys including Settle, Hill and Poona Ford.   This is a deep class and there are a lot of solid players who would fit the bill. I may think higher of Vea than others, but I always loved Haloti Ngata when he was younger as well. I see Vea as being more than Danny Shelton.  Vea can move much better and because coaches like to pigeon-hole players based on size, type, scheme, etc, I think he could generate some pass rush as well inside.  

My main point is more that I believe that  teams need to be more creative with the talent that they have.  Don't get stuck with he is strictly a one, three or five technique guy.   Some players have the talent to do more, why not let them?

[3rivers]

11 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

My main point is more that I believe that  teams need to be more creative with the talent that they have.  Don't get stuck with he is strictly a one, three or five technique guy.   Some players have the talent to do more, why not let them?

some coaches get set in their ways based on consistency of their history. LeBeua was the most extreme case, a system that was not allowing rookies to play etc.  In the league the way it is (rules, cap, UFA), coaches need to make the most  of their roster. Your comment on Pigeon-Hole is what we have been dealing with and have had enough of. Lets see if tomlin and co change their ways. I doubt  they will, but if they do I am interested in seeing what they decide on. Teams adapt well in this league now, so it appears the league is more about making adjustments rather than having a known system in place that will last the test of time.  I wouldn't mind seeing our secondary from 1975, 1993 or our LB's from 2008 , but I doubt that is happening . 

[Steeler Hitman]

2 hours ago, 3rivers said:

This has happened a few times. Hood was never suited for the scheme we had, so he had to adjust , Hargraves is out of place here and was a RD3 pick so at least we aren't wasting RD1 picks as such. If Vea is such a player and we draft him, it would be nice to see a solid D along the front again as it has been a few years.  The way the game has changed, I am starting to think better coverage is more important .

I would not say that Ziggy or Javon are the same talents of an Aaron Donald, Haloti Ngata or Vita Vea.  Hood was a very strong guy who looked like he would be ideal in our system as a DE, but he never moved well and didn't utilize the strength and power from the weight room onto the football field.  I think Javon's only problem has been what he has been asked to do in our scheme. Put him in position to use his talents, and I sincerely believe that he would be effective.  P.S. I was one of the only people who that Hood would be solid in our scheme.  I was wrong.

As for your comment about being unconventional, innovation is always nice when it works. If it is to happen in today's game, will it be us, or say Gregg Williams base nickel  which could be great if he had some more talent. The Broncos had their no fly zone that worked well, 3 excellent cover corners and 2 great edge rushers and the rest was solid too.  The innovation could still be possible, wait and see who does it. Wade should have the Rams ready to make noise, but he also has 2 top tier CB's and a great front 3. 

I think that you gave the easy answer.  If I have a bunch of great talent, I look like a brilliant coach.  One reason why I love Coach Munchack is not what he has gotten from Pouncey, DeCastro and even Gilbert, but rather Villy, BJ Finney, Friend and Feiler.  To me a great coach brings out the best in his players and also alters things to play to his players talents to be more successful.  The Jags have a great defense because it is chocked full of young, fast, high draft choice talent and free agent signings.  I am more impressed with what Billicheck does with good to solid players.  He made former Steeler Mike Vrabel into a stud.  The talent was always there, but we wanted to keep him on the edge behind Gildon. I had long thought that Vrabel could play inside and would have been even better than Chad Brown was inside in our scheme.

My only thing with the Rams is let's see what happens when adversity hits.  You have a bunch of great talent, but you also have some guys who will lose it when things don't go well. They look like the Eagles Dream Team Part Two.

After watching the SB though, I am starting to think that  good defensive football in the playoffs are history if the opposition has a good-great offense. The rules have given the right of way to the offenses to the point where the SB just had the teams go up and down the field at will. Nice that Philly won, but outside of Grahams play, there wasn't much to enjoy as a D minded fan.

I have a lack of interest in the game today is a result , I don't like all the changes but still watch but who knows for how long.  Anyone else feel like this?

I love football and it is hard to not watch. There are a lot of things in the game that I don't like, but they are doing some positive things to try to change some of them. I just wish I knew some things about the game now about 40 years ago. LOL

[Steeler Hitman]

6 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

some coaches get set in their ways based on consistency of their history. LeBeua was the most extreme case, a system that was not allowing rookies to play etc.  In the league the way it is (rules, cap, UFA), coaches need to make the most  of their roster. Your comment on Pigeon-Hole is what we have been dealing with and have had enough of. Lets see if tomlin and co change their ways. I doubt  they will, but if they do I am interested in seeing what they decide on. Teams adapt well in this league now, so it appears the league is more about making adjustments rather than having a known system in place that will last the test of time.  I wouldn't mind seeing our secondary from 1975, 1993 or our LB's from 2008 , but I doubt that is happening . 

Well said!

[3rivers]

1 minute ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I think that you gave the easy answer.  If I have a bunch of great talent, I look like a brilliant coach.  One reason why I love Coach Munchack is not what he has gotten from Pouncey, DeCastro and even Gilbert, but rather Villy, BJ Finney, Friend and Feiler.  To me a great coach brings out the best in his players and also alters things to play to his players talents to be more successful.  The Jags have a great defense because it is chocked full of young, fast, high draft choice talent and free agent signings.  I am more impressed with what Billicheck does with good to solid players.  He made former Steeler Mike Vrabel into a stud.  The talent was always there, but we wanted to keep him on the edge behind Gildon. I had long thought that Vrabel could play inside and would have been even better than Chad Brown was inside in our scheme.

My only thing with the Rams is let's see what happens when adversity hits.  You have a bunch of great talent, but you also have some guys who will lose it when things don't go well. They look like the Eagles Dream Team Part Two.

LeBeau had the most talent, and is  revered yet Munchak doesn't get the same recognition .  How does Vrabel start over Gildon or Porter? Wouldn't that be a nice problem to have now.  Brown was awesome when he went to OLB with a bad ankle. Too bad we never kept him, that was a loss.  We don't have an OLB the calibre of either of those 3 but what should be on his way to approaching this. If Watt gets hurt, OLB lack of pass rush will be more noticed by even casual fans. 

We all get carried away with UFA and mock draft as being our hope, but in reality we need better coaching and decisions of who to play where and how. Hargraves utilization is a  waste it seems, and bud is a dud. Then , ah, just too many issues on D right now. This needs to be a priority in the draft . I am hoping 2 GOOD picks in first 3 rounds for D.  If the games are high scoring with teams going up the field at will, I will probably stop watching. That SB was terrible for me, despite the fact that  I liked the outcome 

[3rivers]

9 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Well said!

Coaching is crucial, a reason I am not sure what to expect with the browns despite the off season they have had. Noll got the most out of his players and the scheme was ideal.  Not so sure tomlin would have won the 4 SB's with that team.  The coach is crucial IMO.  One problem with the Rams is I don't care for their coach. Philly has a good coach,  RB has excellent OL and  is run by committee and not the highest paid centrepiece . D is solid and I expect the Eagles to be good again.  Patricia could be the sleeper this season, I expect him to be a good coach and the Lions should make some noise if Stafford is healthy.  The league needs a new breed of good coaches, as there is a lack of good coaches from what I can tell. 

[Steeler Hitman]

1 minute ago, 3rivers said:

LeBeau had the most talent, and is  revered yet Munchak doesn't get the same recognition .  How does Vrabel start over Gildon or Porter?

Vrabel was never a stud at the edge. Do what Coach Billicheck did and move him inside like we did Potsey. How good would our pass rush and blitz be with Vrabel, Porter and Gilden?

Wouldn't that be a nice problem to have now.  Brown was awesome when he went to OLB with a bad ankle. Too bad we never kept him, that was a loss.  We don't have an OLB the calibre of either of those 3 but what should be on his way to approaching this. If Watt gets hurt, OLB lack of pass rush will be more noticed by even casual fans. 

Do what the Texans did against the Patriots a few years ago by moving your best pass rushers inside.

We all get carried away with UFA and mock draft as being our hope, but in reality we need better coaching and decisions of who to play where and how. Hargraves utilization is a  waste it seems, and bud is a dud. Then , ah, just too many issues on D right now. This needs to be a priority in the draft . I am hoping 2 GOOD picks in first 3 rounds for D.  If the games are high scoring with teams going up the field at will, I will probably stop watching. That SB was terrible for me, despite the fact that  I liked the outcome 

 

[3rivers]

15 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

 

 

16 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Do what the Texans did against the Patriots a few years ago by moving your best pass rushers inside.

This is the coaches doing, and as history has shown, we don't make such adjustments.  It's bad when a QB openly tells how this is his favourite D to play.

[VigilantZombie]

 if I'm being completely honest I feel like it's far too obvious regardless of what the Pittsburgh Steelers have done in free agency as to what the Steelers truly need in the draft and therefore they are the perfect targeted team for other teams to trade up in front of and for that reason I really think that the primary targets that we would be most likely to draft will not be available.