Mind Character

Oof.. somehow I have no idea but the idea that Kyle would turn them away from here didn't cross my mind until your post. That might actually be a disappointing possibility. D*mn it... yeah, you're probably right. Maybe, the opportunity to be a full-time OC and the thought that they could get our offense playing so well that they'd turn the success into a HC job would be enough. But ..sheesh... probably not. Will be interesting to see what happens.

@mtmmike hahahah ..... the framing of your "poll"/questioning about coach desirability is truly legendary... I take it all back So, you title the thread 'Fire Freddie" and then you proceed to ask people if our job is the most desirable... framing the question when bashing the browns is entertainment. This is how you ask things so that you reduce to the extent that they can be reduced bias-confirming and/or biased responses That slurred thread you created in haste was not going to cut it. Mike.. the legendary troll... internet king.. first of his name.

Nothing is certain yet, but we're at that time when team HC job openings are coming into focus. Had an interesting discussion with someone about which potential HC jobs on the market would be most desirable to seeking coaches. There was a stark disagreement. Based on roster composition/talent and all things that are desirable or undesirable for coaches hoping/searching for a Head Coaching job, how would you rank the following potential 10 job openings in terms of their desirability to a coach seeking a Head Coaching job? (Not just a ranking of teams/positions based on liking or disliking) Detroit Lions, Atlanta Falcons, Jacksonville Jaguars, Cleveland Browns New York Giants, Dallas Cowboys, Los Angeles Chargers, Chicago Bears, New York Jets, Washington Skins

Absolutely no reason at all to apologize. You didn't really do anything really wrong...except say i was cyber-bullying you for a regular, ordinary post anyone could make.. lol Relax and remember not to take my posts seriously or even read them. It's just football discussion and banter. Stress around the holidays with work is real. Enjoy your night and coming days as much as possible.

There's no better offense better suited for Baker and our personnel than a Run-first, zone run, play-action, explosive strike offense then the Kyle Shanahan offense. indeed... Mike McDaniel is the one but I'd be down for Mike LaFleur. Andrew Hawkins and Joe Thomas always talk about how amazing Kyle Shannahan was but beyond pleasantries what specifically he did to be an elite OC. Hawkins has then stated that McDaniel is "is just as brilliant and obsessive as Kyle when it comes to offensive football" He also has Browns ties and was our WR coach in 2014 getting the most out of Taylor Gabriel, Andrew Hawkins, and Miles Austin. Left with Kyle and has been elevating ever since. Kyle Shannahan is not giving up play-calling on a full time basis but allows Mike and Mike to call plays some quarters and other games/situations not. Both co-lead offensive meetings with Kyle. I honestly don't know who's the better coach and don't know anyone a part of his coaching tree. But Hawkins endorses him fully Hopefully we can get one of those guys along with a vet coach and qb coach, but I really doubt we make a change and/or Dorsey opens up his search to the Mike Shanahan coaching tree.

Spoken like a true legendary troll... again, I salute your internet prowess and I hope it shall bring thee much internet acclaim..

man.. I honestly have no clue... apparently I've been "picking on" him by posting the following: AND he/they/them/it thinks that by calling him a troll I'm ....

high schooler confirmed... LOL... this sh*t is hilarious...

Huh?? "Picking on..." hahah... wait are you like a high schooler or something? If so, my bad don't take it personal. It's a discussion board things are being discussed. There's no anger or vitriol on my end I'm just having discussion fun. Guaranteed if I posted a Thread titled "Objectively: Rank the Potential Job Openings" those being honest who are knowledgeable about other teams rosters, GMs, and ownership would in no shape or form look at a list of the Browns, Jaguars, Cowboys, Falcons, Panthers, Lions, Giants, Jets and think as you said "the Browns job is 5th." It's such a nothing question it doesn't even need to be posted.

What is ... is not always... What has been ... may not be again.... Time, Forces, and How we respond to them change what we ultimately become... Hue Jackson and anyone that knew Hue knew that he was one of the worst people possible on the planet to hire if the plan was to achieve historic losing and go historically young in a rebuild. There are people that thrive in winning environments and when things are progressing forward, and there are those that come unraveled at the seems under the weight of losing. Kobe Bryant talks about it all the time when referring to basketball when he says, "some coaches are amazing with a young roster helping them develop and play above expectations, but you take those same coaches and they're complete sh*t when they have players with tremendous ability and veteran players that require a different set of interpersonal, leadership, and coaching skill." Hue completely unraveled under the weight of things his the 2nd year: publicly violating all the basic rules of team representing to the media that the players weren't good enough or that the team was "not equipped" to win. Even if a coach thinks that, you can never come out and say those things or you lose the little faith one has. He threw chum chum to the media headline and frenzy machine constantly, his play-calling showed a lack of patience and he pressed trying to go all out with Deshone Kizer when he wasn't prepared to play at that level. Contrary to popular belief, Hue never blamed anyone the 1st year and the game plans given the personnel had logic. It was the 2nd year when everything got nuts. What I think is true is that if you switched positions between Freddie and Hue, Freddie would've had more success than Hue in a similar position while Hue would have had much greater success than Freddie if this was his 2nd year with this type of talent. Hue's messaging rides of the positivity of wins and the moment and works with veterans, but it was not built to weather the storm of our moneyball designs. Freddie has the emotional intelligence and public discipline (somewhat so far) to have worked and taught younger players. At the peak of their powers, Hue far outpaces Freddie as an offensive play-caller and utilization of a diversity of offensive weapons. Hue year 1 vs. Freddie year 1 as HC aren't much different. The difference is the talent around the team. Freddie in the same situation as Hue would've been substantially better and though he might've not one that many more games the culture and mentality of the players would've been healthier and better under Freddie. Joe Thomas said it best, he said "everyone in Cleveland knew the team was tanking in an epic fashion. Everyone in the building knew the front office put us in the best position to lose. It was pure misery knowing that there's a plan in place to lose in an unprecedented fashion, but the difference between the Browns and a tanking team like the Bengals and Dolphins is that the Browns had rookie QBs that weren't highly thought of as well as a full roster of youth."

@mtmmike ... come on man... you honestly believe the Browns job out of a list of? Browns, Jaguars, Cowboys, Falcons, Panthers, Lions, Giants, Jets? ... are 4th or 5th at best??? hahahah... I now grasp the good work that you have been doing on this site. You're obviously a legendary troll.. and I for one salute your heinous efforts...

I'm seeing a word that describes color... Wait.. wait... there's something else... .. a message that says "he will rhymes with 2... .. who could it be? OMG... it's HUE... ----- No, but seriously... you have to remember the quality of jobs that typically come open. Most job positions are available because the team is bad. Which job is best and which is 2nd best??: Browns, Jaguars, Cowboys, Falcons, Panthers, Lions, Giants, Jets? I'd say ours and the Cowboys. Ours might be more coveted because of Jerry Jones or for other reasons. Accept Myles ??? LolLast year, Bruce Arians, Josh McDaniels, and Mike McCarthy all campaigned publicly and through agents in the media to get the Browns job. Beyond that though, do you have any idea how many coaches would sign up to coach Myles, Jarvis, Larry O, Chubb, Hunt, Sheldon, OBJ, Bitonio, Tretter, Ward, Greedy, Baker etc?? . There are going to be numerous good coaches looking to sign up to work with John Dorsey as they respect his scouting mind. Power dynamics get decided by ownership ultimately. The Browns job is still going to be the best non-Cowboys job on the market. .

If we went 8-8 with wins against the 49ers, Seahaws, Jets, Patriots, Titans, Bengals, Steelers, Ravens, it would surely be different then an 8-8 against the Jets, Broncos, Buffalo, Dolphins, Bengals, Bengals, Steelers, Ravens. I'm sure we could imagine those seasons feeling different. Much in that same manner, the context of play and how the team operates matters and can shape analysis and evaluation of competencies and incompetence throughout the course of the season. 2 Interceptions in the boxscore is not equivalent to 2 Interceptions in another box-score. 8-8 records are not the same as other 8-8 records. Context matters. A 8-8 team that battles and competes to the last minute in almost every game and raises it's focus and level of play against harder opponents... a team where the plans of attack and situational football management is handled efficiently and intelligently... is different then an 8-8 team who doesn't show up at all in multiple games, doesn't have plans of attack and situational football management that make sense, lacks competitive focus, etc..

He beat the Lamar Jackson Ravens, swept the legendary Andy Dalton Bengals, and beat the juggernaut Mason Rudolph Steelers so all the other issues the rest of the season are irrelevant. You've convinced me. If that's not a sign of why he gets us I don't know what is. Freddie Freddie! Say it with me Brown and Orange... Brown and Orange!!

Ultimately, Ron Rivera and Steve Wilks make beautiful defensive music together as their defensive collaborations and play-calling Carolina was a true force. They have great respect for each other and Rivera helps a great deal. In terms of Wilks alone on his own merit, what it comes down to for me is that I've seen Steve Wilks get players to play above their head and above their collective talent/ability and make the right calls to give us a winning chance more often then not and he's done so through wild personnel limitations. The injuries and personnel issues can't simply be glossed over as the Browns have experienced almost unprecedented personnel influx due to injury or other issues. The defense has struggled and been bad a lot this year, but more often then not the defense has kept up it's end of the bargain even through numerous major injuries or players being unavailable for other reasons (i.e., team suspensions or being cut). There are 11 starters on Defense. Of our 14 initial starters (nickel vs base adds 2 effective starters), 9/65% of them have been out for numerous games. That means 65% of our defense has been out. Of those players, 6 of them have been out at least 6 games including 2 pro-bowl caliber players; 3 different others have been out at least 4 games including 2 more pro-bowl/all-pro caliber players. We've also had 1 other pro-bowl caliber player out another game. They've been bad but injuries and other issues have decimated the defense all year. Wilks had a horrendous game against the 49ers and struggles in other games, but a lot of his play-calling has changed due to the personnel being influx and we've seen him adapt to 4-3 base verses nickel zone blitzing calls. In critical situations, the defense more often then not has come up with a big stop or big play to give the ball back to the offense to win us the game and/or score to make the game competitive. That has not always been the case but that's why I said more often then not. The defense is always constantly on the field because of our offensive struggles. The 9 out of 14 Initial Starters that have missed many games: Christian Kirksey - 12 games Eric Murray - 7 Games Olivier Vernon - 6 Games (I'm including the one he played a handful of snaps in and got injured in) Damarious Randall - 6 Games (injury and suspension) Jermaine Whitehead - 6 Games (injury and cut) Morgan Burnett - 6 Games Greedy Williams - 5 Games Denzel Ward - 4 Games Myles Garrett - 4 Games (Not counted or included b/c just 1 game) -- Larry Ogunjobi - 1 Game

HC: Ron Rivera OC: Mike McDaniel -- OR -- Mike LaFleur QBs: Whoever McDaniel or LaFleur want to hire approved by Rivera as long as that person is competent. OL: Whoever McDaniel or LaFleur want to hire approved by Rivera as long as that person is competent. DC/Assistant HC: Steve Wilks DBs/Assistant DC: Perry Fewell DBs: Who Rivera and Wilks co-approve of

No worries at all man. I totally understand I had no expectation of a fast response. Whether it be days or whatever it's all good. Enjoy the work grind as much as possible. I always take some vacation time the week before the holiday to get that extended time off. So, I'm just enjoying the nothingness of the late morning.

So, honest questions: 1.) Do you think Baker can handle the pressures or mental strain involved with playing alongside more than 1 talented and/or elite WR play-maker? 2.) Assuming what you and many often say is true, is there a way to help Baker not "focus on keeping a play-maker happy and not just making reads and throws" besides just trading away that player? Or is trading away talent so Baker doesn't have to worry about him the option of choice for Baker and the team? 3.) So, we trade OBJ... leaving us with Jarvis Landry and no WR or TE play-maker. What level of play-making talent (how good is too good) is Baker capable of successfully working with where he can just go through his reads all comfortable like as you all suggest? 4.) Will it always be too difficult for Freddie Kitchens or Baker Mayfield to handle incorporating 2 WRs, 1 RB, and 1 change of pace pass catching RB? ------- Imagine Tony Dungy going to Peyton Manning and saying, " Good News...help is on the way Peyton, we're going to trade Marvin Harrison so you don't have to deal with the mental strain of making him happy. Now instead you can just focus on getting the ball to Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James, Dallas Clark, and Brandon Stokley... and you know what actually that's too much strain too.. so to help you out we're going to trade one of them to." To me, it's just maddening to hear that the way to help a QB is to trade a play-maker because the mental strain on the QB is too hardy hard. If Baker can't handle playing with more than 1 play-maker, then he's not the right QB in the first place. Even if he does have those struggles, the solution is for the offensive group to come together with chemistry/understanding and for the play-caller to design the offense better NOT to just trade players away. Baker played with CeeDee Lamb, Hollywood Brown, Mark Andrews, Rodney Anderson..Joe Mixon... he's played in multiple play-maker offenses. Lincoln Riley and great play-callers and QB offensive mastery help fix a lot. All things in life are multiply determined with some factors being more important in determining the outcome. OBJ has been part of the issue, but he's not in the top 3 of main factors determining the offenses struggles. I really don't know how one could watch this season and say to themselves that OBJ is the primary, secondary, or third reason for our offenses issues. Is he a part of it? Sure. It's a really odd focus to put things on Odell given how this year's played out. Battled injury to what will be 1100 yard down year. I don't get it. But who gives a F*ck at this point.

So, in your honest emotion, frustration, and personal dislikes aside, given the full body of snaps and plays (receiving, blocking special teams) you think that Odell Beckham Jr. doesn't play hard or give his all out there because after the interception that wasn't against the Steelers "he took a half step to go after the guy and then abruptly decided to walk to the side.." AND weighing that moment with your perceptions of all his work this year your summary opinion is he doesn't play hard. Lol. I think if you'd keep it real you'd acknowledge that maybe your dislike of things associated with Odell is distorting your perception of his trait effort. I saw that play. I've seen all his plays this year. Have seen him play at LSU to the Giants. If there's one thing that OBJ is, he's an ultra competitor that gives his all and plays hard. He's a player that gets frustrated, he's an emotional player, he drops the ball, and plays poorly. There's 0% issues with his effort. His run blocking down the field for Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt has been exceptional with him straining for blocks even through injury. He runs deep routes with purpose. He hangs his head and let's emotion get the best of him. I've heard the exact same things about OBJ about Duke Johnson and Joe Haden. Duke "always running off the field... he quit on that route and didn't fight for the ball" .. Joe "not running hard through his hernia injury and loafing." History happens first as tragedy second time as farce. It's a comedy watching it continue to play on. But you all are special special projecting that OBJ doesn't play hard as if it's some core trait or reason for his issues this season, or whatever hit is you all have in your mind. Part of me wants OBJ to get traded asap. Just because we as Browns fans don't deserve talents in our insanity.

I keep hearing some of the most insane true tortured Browns fan stuff that's just madness. Stuff like," We need to return to the simpler times.. the good times when we had less talent.. so Baker and our OC can thrive once more not having to worry about so many mouths to feed and worry about having to get the ball so so many people's." It's nuts. We're literally talking about getting the ball to 2 WRs and 2 RBs with one being a pass catcher; We're NOT talking about having 3 WRs; a TE; and RBs. People are acting like it's quantum physics. Some teams have GASP! 3 WRs, a TE, and a RB and they were able to do all the advanced rocket science to figure out that they wouldn't be better by trading one of them. Can you imagine other coaches or their fan bases saying of some of the more talented offenses in the game saying stuff, " I"m sorry... we're going to have to trade you .. I'm afraid we just have too many good players and it's too conffusing and hard to figure this out." You know we've gone completely bat **** crazy when plans being put forth are, " Okay. I think I have it figured out how to thrive.. Let's start with trading Jarvis Landry and Odell Beckham.. after that things will start to click for our play-calling and QB." Nuts I tell ya... Absolutely NUTS...

It's takes a special type of bad to have the NFL's leading rusher and having an offense this ineffectual. Seriously. We're still not leveraging productive running to help the passing game. Still few and far between play-action passes or similar zone run looks that are actually pass plays. No rhythm off of a first down run or good run to get to the line with tempo and pace and keep the defense on their heels to put pressure on their mental and physical. Then, attacking them. Still slow, late getting the plays in, shotgun 3 wide, similar route combos. Being that I 100% believe that Freddie will be back next year some please (seriously) give me some reasons why things will be better next year? Maybe he goes into the lab and puts in the time to get better? We get healthier and more talent? .... ??

Freddie returning to AZ Steve Wilks returning to AZ Baker playing Kyler. Team still in contention. None of it mattered.

lol.. Facts...

lol. Much appreicated.. hahah.. Back it up to the hard drive top just in case... Then back it up to the super secret one that's hidden in that old shoe box in the attic with the title "College Victories."

Hold on man .. we have to stop this. This the whole "Joe Haden Doesn't play hard:... " Duke Johnson doesn't play hard." You can dislike or hate OBJ AND think that he's played Poorly without saying he doesn't play hard. The latter is just not true. He doesn't loaf on routes. He's gutting it out every snap with a groin issue and hernia issue. He's engaged in blocking every game. He runs deep routes with purpose despite the knowledge that he likely isn't getting the ball. Forever, we Browns fans can't disassociate INJURY/Poor Play from Heart/Effort/Commitment. This stuff is expected but it's always wild. You can hate that he wears shoes or wears watches or drops the ball or does what superstar wrs do from time to time and complains about his utilization, but saying he doesn't play hard isn't an at all an accurate analysis based on the evidence of his down to down play.