Soko Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said: Because we're talking about how they are relative to their peers. There are numerous receivers around the league who demonstrate just how unremarkable the guys you named are in terms of coming out of their breaks. Yeah, compared to some couch potato like you, those guys are world beaters in coming out of their breaks. Compared to numerous receivers who aren't hindered by being taller, however, they are not. You can post as many gifs as you want, but they're not going to make up for your lack of football knowledge. No, we're not. I quoted and responded specifically to the claim that: "Hardly anybody over 6'1 is [sudden with their change of direction]. Jerry Rice might be the only exception." Move the goal posts, if you'd like. And yeah, there are numerous amounts. Brandin Cooks, OBJ, Antonio Brown, etc. But last I checked, you don't have to be amongst the best in the league at a certain skill to have the skill in any capacity. There are numerous wide receivers faster than AJ Green, but that doesn't mean he lacks speed. There are numerous receivers with better hands, but that doesn't mean Julian Edelman can't catch. There are numerous better route runners, but that doesn't mean Robert Woods can't run good routes. You never answered my very legitimate question: do you think we ought to contact the NBA expert equivalent to your astute, NFL-only mind? We need to get to the bottom of this. Russell Westbrook isn't sudden! John Wall can't change directions! The Greek Freak should've stopped growing in high school! Bron is slow! We should lower the rim to 8 feet so the shorter, quicker guys can take over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLExpert49 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, ET80 said: Source? We live in an age of Google, so if it was universally understood among scouts, you should be able to present something fairly quickly. Correlation does not equal causation. All 40 yard receptions aren't created equally. How many are blown coverages? How many are broken tackles? How many are due to a QB extending a play and drawing a defense in? How many are due to a WR demonstrating explosive traits? THAT'S the point we're trying to make. Unless you can provide a granular breakdown of the circumstances of each 40+ yard play, you can't take this stat with any sort of confidence. Whatever helps you sleep at night, princess. NFL scouts aren't posting real scouting reports on the internet. Only amateur wannabes are. Your second paragraph is pure nonsense. That kind of thing balances out over time. Nobody in their right mind thinks that Bob Hayes had 36 40+ yard TDs to Fitzgerald's 8, despite playing in 86 fewer games, because he was the recipient of 28 more blown coverages. Over a large sample of games, it's going to balance out. When the statistical difference is minor, you can make the case that there isn't anything to necessarily show one player is more explosive than the other. However, when it's that astronomic, it's a safe bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLExpert49 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: No, we're not. I quoted and responded specifically to the claim that: "Hardly anybody over 6'1 is [sudden with their change of direction]. Jerry Rice might be the only exception." Move the goal posts, if you'd like. And yeah, there are numerous amounts. Brandin Cooks, OBJ, Antonio Brown, etc. But last I checked, you don't have to be amongst the best in the league at a certain skill to have the skill in any capacity. There are numerous wide receivers faster than AJ Green, but that doesn't mean he lacks speed. There are numerous receivers with better hands, but that doesn't mean Julian Edelman can't catch. There are numerous better route runners, but that doesn't mean Robert Woods can't run good routes. You never answered my very legitimate question: do you think we ought to contact the NBA expert equivalent to your astute, NFL-only mind? We need to get to the bottom of this. Russell Westbrook isn't sudden! John Wall can't change directions! The Greek Freak should've stopped growing in high school! Bron is slow! We should lower the rim to 8 feet so the shorter, quicker guys can take over. And that remains true. Do you not understand that when evaluating professional athletes, it's relative to other professional athletes? What's next, are you going to tell me that a wide receiver who runs a 4.9 is fast because none of us could do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said: NFL scouts aren't posting real scouting reports on the internet. Only amateur wannabes are. So, you have nothing to base it on. You yourself stated these things are not public knowledge, but you reference then as if it's something you've witnessed firsthand. So, you're protecting your personal bias as a universal truth. This is why we can't have nice things. 10 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said: Your second paragraph is pure nonsense As a professional in data analytics, I can tell you that there's an entire field dedicated to studying and developing this pure nonsense. I'll take their views over yours, thanks kindly. 10 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said: Over a large sample of games, it's going to balance out. Perhaps, but given we're talking about instances in the tens (not the thousands or hundred thousands, as most regression to the mean instances live in) this balance you're assuming is across a very small sample size. 12 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said: When the statistical difference is minor, you can make the case that there isn't anything to necessarily show one player is more explosive than the other. However, when it's that astronomic, it's a safe bet. In what universe is 36 receptions over 40+ yards an astronomic measure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said: And that remains true. Do you not understand that when evaluating professional athletes, it's relative to other professional athletes? What's next, are you going to tell me that a wide receiver who runs a 4.9 is fast because none of us could do that? Hey, I might not be the Steven King of the NFL like you, but I can uNdErStAnD the discussion. I am comparing those guys to their peers. For instance, Mr. Expert, AJ Green isn't as sudden as Odell Beckham or Antonio Brown, but he is also much more sudden than Mike Evans or Alshon Jeffery. So he's not in the elite category, but he's far from the worst. And when the original claim is, and I paraphrase: 'no one in the NFL over 6'1 is sudden in their change of direction except for Rice', then I would have to assume your criteria must mean that only the elite players have skills. Follow-up question to whether or not we should DM the NBA Steve Jobs; you called me a couch potato, do you assume that everyone on this message board is less intelligent or more of a couch potato than say, you? Or is it just everyone who disagrees must not only be less qualified and knowledgable on the topic, but also potato shaped and glued to their couch? Follow-up to the follow-up; kind of potato we talkin'? Baked? French fry? If I'm a potato chip at least I'm not fat, I'm just trying to get the most of our discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said: Follow-up to the follow-up; kind of potato we talkin'? Baked? French fry? If I'm a potato chip at least I'm not fat, I'm just trying to get the most of our discussion. I'ma sweet potato, baby. Don't get it twisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, ET80 said: I'ma sweet potato, baby. Don't get it twisted. I'd say someone ITT is definitely baked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 On 2018-07-08 at 9:12 AM, Superman(DH23) said: I think we are saying the same thing here ET. But Larrys ability to win the jump ball is more about his body control and hands and the fact that he is 6'3" often facing 5'10" cbs. I wouldnt describe him as explosive as much as i love him. Didn’t he have like a 36” vert and run a 4.48? That’s pretty damn explosive for a receiver pushing 220. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman(DH23) Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: Didn’t he have like a 36” vert and run a 4.48? That’s pretty damn explosive for a receiver pushing 220. Truthfully those are very average #s (for nfl wrs) even for a wr his size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman(DH23) Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 @NFLExpert49 Since you are the nfl expert and the rest of us are just poor shlubs who dont know the game at all, im sure you know all this, so we'll just say im educating all the ones who dont. Cod speed is only a very small part of route running. First thing i coach about running routes is eye discipline. The eyes naturally want to go to where the cut is on the route. A good cb will spot that and use it. You have to keep your eyes up and down field. Second is the stem. Do all of the routes look the same before the break. Does a 9 look the same as a 7 or a 3 or a 1? Where is the cb leverage. If im running a 2 for example, its imperative that i dont let the cb cross my face. Where is the safety? My breaks have to adjust for these factors. I dont necessarily want to run full speed every time. If its a wc timing route its much more important im in the exact spot im supposed to be when the qb is ready to release the ball than it is to be full speed. There is a reason why the best route runners the league has seen are not all the short quick guys but are the guys who notoriously worked their craft until they became masters. Thats why Fitz is one of the best all time. Saying Fitz was not a great route runner is a terrible take and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of the position. You of course are welcome to your terrible takes but dont act surprised or high and mighty when people call out the fact that your terrible takes are terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Superman(DH23) said: Truthfully those are very average #s (for nfl wrs) even for a wr his size. No, actually. They're astonishingly rare numbers according to Pro Football Reference. In fact there are only 13 names that fit that criteria since 2000. It was refined by: 2000-2018 Height: 6'2 - 6'6 Weight: 220-240 40 yard dash: 4.55 <= Vertical: 35' <= https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/nfl-combine-results.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2018&height_min=75&height_max=79&weight_min=220&weight_max=230&pos[]=WR&show=all&c1stat=forty_yd&c1comp=lt&c1val=4.55&c2stat=vertical&c2comp=gt&c2val=36&order_by=year_id So upon further investigation Fitzgerald's vertical was 38"? So this list grows slimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywlker32 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 17 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said: Uh, they're not. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about because you don't understand the game. You're an amateur who thinks he knows better than someone who has been around actual NFL scouts. You don't know enough to know you don't know enough. When you compare a Brandon freaking Marshall to an Isaac Bruce, it's night and day. Isaac Bruce could leave corners falling to the ground coming out of his breaks. None of the guys you named could do that. That doesn't mean they can't get open, but it means that they won't often get open against man coverage with routes alone. They need either scheme, or a good release, or pure speed, or to use their size to box the corner out, etc. This is pretty funny to me. I know many people in the health care field, but I wouldn't claim to know more about that field than anyone else that isn't in the field either. You clearly don't know nearly as much about the game as you claim to be. Now go ask your Daddy's friends where they would rate Fitzgerald in his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLExpert49 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/12/2018 at 7:07 PM, ET80 said: So, you have nothing to base it on. You yourself stated these things are not public knowledge, but you reference then as if it's something you've witnessed firsthand. So, you're protecting your personal bias as a universal truth. This is why we can't have nice things. As a professional in data analytics, I can tell you that there's an entire field dedicated to studying and developing this pure nonsense. I'll take their views over yours, thanks kindly. Perhaps, but given we're talking about instances in the tens (not the thousands or hundred thousands, as most regression to the mean instances live in) this balance you're assuming is across a very small sample size. In what universe is 36 receptions over 40+ yards an astronomic measure? I have witnessed it because I know actual NFL scouts. No, your laughable hypotheticals have nothing to do with "data analytics." They're pure insanity. I already explained why. "In what universe is 36 receptions over 40+ yards an astronomic measure?" In a universe where the thing it's being compared to is 8. 36-8 is not even remotely close. Relative to the sample, it's astronomic. Based on your logic, someone getting 36 sacks in a season as opposed to 8 doesn't mean much. Maybe the guy who got 36 sacks just got a bunch of coverage sacks. Maybe there were blown blocking schemes allowing him a free shot at the QB. You can play that game with every statistic in football, which is why you have to take every statistic pertaining to football with a grain of salt. But you can certainly make some safe assumptions about things that are that dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLExpert49 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 7/12/2018 at 7:08 PM, Yin-Yang said: Hey, I might not be the Steven King of the NFL like you, but I can uNdErStAnD the discussion. I am comparing those guys to their peers. For instance, Mr. Expert, AJ Green isn't as sudden as Odell Beckham or Antonio Brown, but he is also much more sudden than Mike Evans or Alshon Jeffery. So he's not in the elite category, but he's far from the worst. And when the original claim is, and I paraphrase: 'no one in the NFL over 6'1 is sudden in their change of direction except for Rice', then I would have to assume your criteria must mean that only the elite players have skills. Follow-up question to whether or not we should DM the NBA Steve Jobs; you called me a couch potato, do you assume that everyone on this message board is less intelligent or more of a couch potato than say, you? Or is it just everyone who disagrees must not only be less qualified and knowledgable on the topic, but also potato shaped and glued to their couch? Follow-up to the follow-up; kind of potato we talkin'? Baked? French fry? If I'm a potato chip at least I'm not fat, I'm just trying to get the most of our discussion. "Far from the worst" does not mean you describe someone as "sudden." When you describe a football player as, "sudden," you mean his suddenness stands out compared to his peers. You wouldn't describe a guy with average speed as "fast," now, would you? Your posts are so full of straw man I don't even know where to begin. Makes sense, though. When you can't argue with what I actually said, it's much easier to just make stuff up and argue with yourself instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFLExpert49 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 14 hours ago, SmittyBacall said: Didn’t he have like a 36” vert and run a 4.48? That’s pretty damn explosive for a receiver pushing 220. Nope. http://proxy.espn.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=1765595 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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