turtle28 Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Slateman said: Yep The Bears look like a genius to no one. They've bet their entire future on Mitch Tribusky, who isn't going to get them to the playoffs. I'm pretty sure we would all give up a first rounder for Khalil Mack on a rookie deal and an extra 90 million in cap space over the next few years. So, by your estimate, the Raiders gave up a guy they weren't going to sign, for an impact pass rusher on a rookie deal for the next five years, an extra 1st round pick, and a ton of cap room. The Raiders are playing the long game so they can enter 2020 with a new stadium in Vegas and have a good team to bring in fans. They have a franchise QB and a coach locked in long term. You're acting like Mack was gonna stay like this forever. He isn't. By the time the Bears will realize that Mitch is a bum, Mack will be a decent, but no longer elite, pass rusher. But they'll be in salary cap hell because of that deal. Meanwhile, the Raiders will have a ton of depth from two top 15 draft picks to pair with their 29 year old, franchise QB, whose cap hits will be 21 million and 22 million, respectively in 2020 and 2021. There is no way Mack is worth two first round picks, let alone another player. I think the act opposite on all of this. I’ll consistently contend that most people over value draft picks. If you can get an all-pro, even if it costs you two first you should do it because it’s highly unlikely you’ll draft one with those two picks. The Bears problem recently since Urlacher retired was a lack of playmakers at all on both sides of the ball. They’ve drafted all kinds of defenders and offensive players and have had little success through the draft in finding one who will make a difference like Mack did in his first game or will going forward, same with the Redskins to be honest. We signed some guys like Djax who made a huge difference but we haven’t drafted many. I guess Reed & CT are the two I can think of. Cap space is not a problem for the Bears and Trubisky hasn’t even started 16 games in the NFL yet, let’s pump the breaks on calling him a bust or a bum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSkinGM Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 Bout a 100 years ago- actually 1975. George (The future is now ! ) Allen traded 2 first and a second to the St Louis Cardinals for Dave Butz. He played for 14 more years - 3 Superbowl appearances . Missed 4 games in his career. I guess Jr doesn't have the balls his dada had ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 2 hours ago, turtle28 said: I think the act opposite on all of this. I’ll consistently contend that most people over value draft picks. If you can get an all-pro, even if it costs you two first you should do it because it’s highly unlikely you’ll draft one with those two picks. The Bears problem recently since Urlacher retired was a lack of playmakers at all on both sides of the ball. They’ve drafted all kinds of defenders and offensive players and have had little success through the draft in finding one who will make a difference like Mack did in his first game or will going forward, same with the Redskins to be honest. We signed some guys like Djax who made a huge difference but we haven’t drafted many. I guess Reed & CT are the two I can think of. Cap space is not a problem for the Bears and Trubisky hasn’t even started 16 games in the NFL yet, let’s pump the breaks on calling him a bust or a bum. The Bears have a lot of younger defenders that will be due pay increases in a couple years. They spent a lot of money on the offensive side of the ball. I've seen enough of Mitch to know he ain't ever going to be a franchise QB. Green Bays' defense is meh and he couldn't do squat against them. Over value draft picks? With the rookie salary slots, draft picks are underrated if anything. Those rookie first rounders allow you to get big time free agents in this market. The Rams were able to get and pay Cooks, Talib, and Peterson because they have Jared Geoff at a stupidly low salary. The Seahawks won a SB because of Wilson's cap friendly rookie deal. The Redskins could not afford to keep Allen, Payne, and Ioannidis if they were free agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Draper Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 What Ithink about from this trade is you have a player who you know you can’t sign and rather than playing out the contract you get what you can. Just imagine if the Redskins had done this in August last year with Cousins. Would we have received two number 1’s? A 1 and a 2? Certainly more than a comp pick Not trading Cousins last year will go down as a terrible management decision by a team with both the worst trade ( Rg)and the worst free agency acquisition (Fat Al)in nfl history. Did the bears overpay? Yes. Did the raiders do the right thing? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 18 hours ago, Slateman said: The Bears have a lot of younger defenders that will be due pay increases in a couple years. They spent a lot of money on the offensive side of the ball. I've seen enough of Mitch to know he ain't ever going to be a franchise QB. Green Bays' defense is meh and he couldn't do squat against them. Over value draft picks? With the rookie salary slots, draft picks are underrated if anything. Those rookie first rounders allow you to get big time free agents in this market. The Rams were able to get and pay Cooks, Talib, and Peterson because they have Jared Geoff at a stupidly low salary. The Seahawks won a SB because of Wilson's cap friendly rookie deal. The Redskins could not afford to keep Allen, Payne, and Ioannidis if they were free agents. Yeah, they have a lot of young defender and guess what? As I said before they’ve drafted all those guys and they’ve underperformed, gotten injured and none of them have been game changers. Anyways, they’ve already locked up those key young defenders. 1. Kyle Fulker 2. Aikem Hicks 3. Eddie Goldman 4. Danny Trevathan still has one more year left on his contact after this year. Hey guess what? How did the Pats abd then the Rams get Cooks? oh yeah, that’s right they traded draft pick for him (1st & 6th round pick) They traded draft picks for Marcus Peters (2018 4th and 2019 2nd picks) and they traded multiple draft picks to move up and draft Jarred Goff: • 2016 Round 1 pick (No. 1 overall) • 2016 Round 4 pick (No. 113) • 2016 Round 6 pick (No. 177) So again, Mack = one draft pick. They essentially traded one 1st round pick for him. The Raiders are in a worst position trying to replace an All-Pro player in two positions who was DPOY! Yeah, they saved cap space but what does that matter if you don’t have the talent? It’s a lie that they couldn’t afford him on a LTD. They have $28.5 million tied up in 4 players on their OL, that’s their main issue and two of them are going to be 30 next year and one is 35. Also, they made a poor decision in extending Gabe Jackson - their RG - over giving Khalil Mack an extension in June. They gave Jackson a five-year extension to worth $56 million. You’re telling me they couldn’t have used that $ to re-sign Mack? I call BS on that Jon Gruden! Again, draft picks are a bit overrated as long as the players you’re trading for with them become good or are great players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 "Draft picks are overrated" Lulz .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 44 minutes ago, Slateman said: "Draft picks are overrated" Lulz .... You obviously accept my point because you have no competent response to my post. What’s more important, Brandon Cooks, Marcus Peters and Khalil Mack or those draft picks? I’d argue the pro bowl players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 44 minutes ago, turtle28 said: You obviously accept my point because you have no competent response to my post. What’s more important, Brandon Cooks, Marcus Peters and Khalil Mack or those draft picks? I’d argue the pro bowl players No, I'm laughing because you ignored my point and are trying to make the same argument that Vinny Cerrati and Mike Shanahan tried to make. "Draft picks are overrated" ..... lulz. Why are those players on those teams? Because both of those teams have young, cost controlled quarterbacks and other quality talent. That they got in the draft. And the Patriots have Brady on a team friendly deal. Peters I would have given that up in heartbeat. Basically a second rounder for two years of control? Sure. Cooks and Mack were monstrous overpays. You shouldn't have to give up day 1 or 2 picks for that kind if salary cap hit. The Raiders chose not to sign Mack because it would have put them in cap hell. Mack made it clear he was only interested in the most money. We currently have 24 million wrapped in three players on the offensive line. And the only reason that's not higher is because Scherff is in his rookie limited deal. 28 million in dead cap hit is divided in between two of those linemen. Doesnt seem that unremarkable to invest in an offensive line for your franchise QB. Saying that draft picks are overrated is the height of irony, considering everything the Redskins have been through the last 20 years. Are you willing to give up Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne for the privilege if paying Kalhil Mack 90 million dollars? I'm not. That's a terrible deal for a team without a franchise QB that is looking to develop talent and depth long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Slateman said: No, I'm laughing because you ignored my point and are trying to make the same argument that Vinny Cerrati and Mike Shanahan tried to make. "Draft picks are overrated" ..... lulz. Why are those players on those teams? Because both of those teams have young, cost controlled quarterbacks and other quality talent. That they got in the draft. And the Patriots have Brady on a team friendly deal. Peters I would have given that up in heartbeat. Basically a second rounder for two years of control? Sure. Cooks and Mack were monstrous overpays. You shouldn't have to give up day 1 or 2 picks for that kind if salary cap hit. The Raiders chose not to sign Mack because it would have put them in cap hell. Mack made it clear he was only interested in the most money. We currently have 24 million wrapped in three players on the offensive line. And the only reason that's not higher is because Scherff is in his rookie limited deal. 28 million in dead cap hit is divided in between two of those linemen. Doesnt seem that unremarkable to invest in an offensive line for your franchise QB. Saying that draft picks are overrated is the height of irony, considering everything the Redskins have been through the last 20 years. Are you willing to give up Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne for the privilege if paying Kalhil Mack 90 million dollars? I'm not. That's a terrible deal for a team without a franchise QB that is looking to develop talent and depth long term. You’re misinterpreting what my point is. I’m not saying draft picks are totally overrated or don’t mean anything, I’m saying that if you can get a 25 year old All-Pro for a draft pick that it is a sound investment because you aren’t likely to be able to draft another All-Pro. Keeping your best players and building around them is the best way to build a team, the Raiders made a mistake in not doing that. Like I said, they gave Jackson - a good but not great OG - a 5-year, $56 million deal. The smartest move for the Raiders would’ve been to extend Khalil Mack, let Jackson walk and then draft a C/G in round 2-4 and signed a cheaper vet to compete to start at RG. The Raiders aren’t going to win much because of below average defense they have with a poor pass rush and it’s worse because Gruden traded Mack. And Yes, I’d take an DPOY edge pass rusher over two good DTs any day. Good DTs are easier to find throughout the first half of the draft and in free agency than a player of Mack’s DPOY talent level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 You literally said draft picks are overrated. Mack is 27. No matter how good Mack is, he won't make up for the Bears having a average QB. The Raiders didnt want to put themselves in cap hell to extend a player who wont be an All Pro when the Raiders are looking to compete in two to three years. The Bears have now done exactly that and they dont have a quarterback capable of getting them to the next level. Their ceiling is the 2014-2015 Houston Texans. And when they finally realize that Mitch isnt good enough to be a franchise QB, they wont have the draft picks or the cap space to build around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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