Dcash4 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I think it’s entirely too early to give Burns any sort of definitive narrative on what his career will be. He is newly turned 23 going into his third year. He was once thought of as a guy who would have to redshirt by our own GM, But was forced into action. His biggest issues have come from the mental side of things which improve with experience, coaching, and strong leadership. I Don’t believe he had the last two at any point during his career so I think this will be a very telling year. The third year is generally regarded as the jump year. I don’t think we should declare a guy as young and as raw as him a bust until he gets through this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 23 minutes ago, wwhickok said: #4 TE Hunter Henry/SD #5 OLB Myles Jack/Jax #10 ILB Reggie Ragland/Bills (now Chiefs) #21 OLB Deion Jones/ATL I dont usually like to dwell on the past, but just to comment on these 4... Henry is obviously a better player, but Im not particularly worried about our TE position, so the things holding us back would still be holding us back even with him. Jack was who I was kind of pulling for at that point, but I get why we didnt draft him....same reason he fell to the 2nd round. Ragland has his issues and hasnt been a better pick than Burns TO THIS POINT. IMO, Jones wouldnt be having the same success here as he has had in Atlanta, mainly due to defensive scheme....but Id still take him over Burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, Dcash4 said: I think it’s entirely too early to give Burns any sort of definitive narrative on what his career will be. He is newly turned 23 going into his third year. He was once thought of as a guy who would have to redshirt by our own GM, But was forced into action. His biggest issues have come from the mental side of things which improve with experience, coaching, and strong leadership. I Don’t believe he had the last two at any point during his career so I think this will be a very telling year. The third year is generally regarded as the jump year. I don’t think we should declare a guy as young and as raw as him a bust until he gets through this year. No one has definitively called him a bust. Just said that the writing is on the wall. His instincts are terrible (and those arent likely to get much better), and he didnt make any notable improvement from year one to year two. I agree players should usually be given 3 years before you judge them, but the fact is, you should still see improvement from a players rookie year to their 2nd year....and I didnt see any from Artie. Not even a little. Same reason I had very little hope for Jarvis Jones and the reason I dont have much hope for Sean Davis and Bud Dupree (I gave Dupree a pass his 2nd year because he was injured,...but he showed no progression last year either). I havent COMPLETELY given up on any of those 3....but I have very little hope for any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 17 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said: No one has definitively called him a bust. Just said that the writing is on the wall. His instincts are terrible (and those arent likely to get much better), and he didnt make any notable improvement from year one to year two. I agree players should usually be given 3 years before you judge them, but the fact is, you should still see improvement from a players rookie year to their 2nd year....and I didnt see any from Artie. Not even a little. Same reason I had very little hope for Jarvis Jones and the reason I dont have much hope for Sean Davis and Bud Dupree (I gave Dupree a pass his 2nd year because he was injured,...but he showed no progression last year either). I havent COMPLETELY given up on any of those 3....but I have very little hope for any of them. I endorse all of this. I agree, i feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcash4 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 52 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said: but the fact is, you should still see improvement from a players rookie year to their 2nd year If you step back and don’t think of a player, but rather the situation: would you be surprised I said an extremely raw, young developmental player wasn’t ready to be a quality starter in year two? I think fan expectations is what drives the negative opinion on burns too far, not the reality of the situation. The part I quoted goes with what I mentioned about Colbert even saying they wanted to redshirt Burns. His early “success” his rookie year to fans dropped the reality and evelated his development beyond its actual trajectory. I agree with your statement of improvement, but I would argue he is most likely on his developmental path. I just don’t know what the proper improvements would be for a guy who in a perfect world probably should have only been pushing for time last year is Jones was a limited athlete and it was obvious right away he couldn’t compete. Artie isn’t that, but I will agree on the insticts. I truly think Lake was an awful coach and that Mitchell and even Gay were poor leaders which I think is a big part of Burns (and Davis) developments. I just don’t think “the writing is on the wall” other than the writing saying this guy is young and raw. If he doesn’t jump this year, then he is in trouble. But hopefully the exit of Mitchell and Lake and the competition from Sutton can bring out the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Artie Burns has shown NO improvements. Thats the problem. Its not too early to tell you that if Burns shows no progression this season he should be cut next offseason imo. And yes im smart enough to know that wont happen, more time will be wasted on him and Dupree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcash4 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, wwhickok said: Artie Burns has shown NO improvements. Thats the problem. Its not too early to tell you that if Burns shows no progression this season he should be cut next offseason imo. But if Burns was immediately billed as a guy who was going to take some time to develop, why is the fact that he isn’t a star player in year two surprising? That’s my point. Inaccurate expectations caused a lot of this because he didn’t suck his first year. He wasn’t really good, but he didn’t suck either. People went from zero expectations to high expectations and the developmental path of a 22 year old didn’t match. I don’t think that means he hasn’t improved AT ALL, I just think that means he wasn’t ready — which shouldn’t be surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Just now, Dcash4 said: But if Burns was immediately billed as a guy who was going to take some time to develop, why is the fact that he isn’t a star player in year two surprising? That’s my point. Inaccurate expectations caused a lot of this because he didn’t suck his first year. He wasn’t really good, but he didn’t suck either. People went from zero expectations to high expectations and the developmental path of a 22 year old didn’t match. I don’t think that means he hasn’t improved AT ALL, I just think that means he wasn’t ready — which shouldn’t be surprising. First of all, he is going into year 3. The issue isnt that he isnt a star. The issue is that he hasnt improved from his collegiate progress. He hasnt progressed at all. He gets beat more than he doesnt, misses assignments, makes bad reads, misses tackles more often than he doesnt. He is slightly better than Sean Davis and we all agree that Davis is pretty much a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 This is an important year for Artie, but to try and write him off so soon would be a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, warfelg said: This is an important year for Artie, but to try and write him off so soon would be a mistake. I am still hopeful, but im not optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chieferific Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Dcash4 said: If you step back and don’t think of a player, but rather the situation: would you be surprised I said an extremely raw, young developmental player wasn’t ready to be a quality starter in year two? This is a good point. However, that is not the description of a 1st Rd pick. It doesn't even describe a 2nd Rdr imo. I think that is what people (including me) have an issue with. He had a 2nd Rd grade and the Steelers reached for him. I know some posters have issue with the term "reach" as we don't really know what GMs think but I know what I saw from him in college. He was a 3rd rdr imo. If he was taken then, I don't think he'd be getting the criticism he's getting now (for good reason). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 On 2018-08-19 at 7:55 PM, wwhickok said: Artie Burns has shown NO improvements. Thats the problem. Its not too early to tell you that if Burns shows no progression this season he should be cut next offseason imo. And yes im smart enough to know that wont happen, more time will be wasted on him and Dupree. This is why I had the thread about these 2 players. Now that I see what is happening with the team in 2018 : dupree will be schemed to get his stats and make colbert feel better about the pick, but burns has no chance for such as he is a CB and will have to play well or it will be known. I really don't see burns being a legit CB in man coverage in the nfl. It's just a matter of time before they finally pull him. This thread was about DDC, but we all know and agree he was a gift in the draft and is going to be a top notch OG as long as he is healthy, and OL can be really good into their mid to late 30's so do the math . I used to have a problem with how the OL was and how they went about trying to correct it but they finally got it figured out after ben almost ended up in a wheelchair. Now if they can figure out the D, but that too could require being one of the worst before they make the changes. They got a lot of garbage stats last year, but this schedule is different so lets wait and see how this season goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rivers Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 On 2018-08-19 at 8:15 PM, warfelg said: This is an important year for Artie, but to try and write him off so soon would be a mistake. What's too soon? If he costs us 1 game, 2,3,4 ,5 games? It's going to come down to this, he can't look around at a teammate and blame him (like he did last year) , because not only is that wrong, but he is now the common denominator and will just be making a fool of himself (again) . This is make or break for him because if Sutton or Allen get a chance, I think Burns is done. He might catch on to a zone heavy team somewhere, but to draft hime RD1 and this is what we have , what (another) bad RD1 pick. Just think of how it would be if the Browns never released Haden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfelg Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 You don't take that stand point. What constitutes 'costing a game'? A PI that leads to the FG that puts a team ahead? Giving up a TD in a game that the offense doesn't do it's part? What you take the stand point is growth. If he doesn't make the same mistakes, if there's better communication there, if he cuts back on the penalties.....thats what you need to see. Because I'm taking the point that he started playing at Miami as a true freshman, so his rookie year was basically his senior year in HS; he didn't get much development in college. And on top of that last year was his second year where there was a ton of upheaval to play, where they asked him to zone more than man (his weak point), the bumped him from 1's to 2's, and sophomore slump. Wanna know what I find funny: Ben felt a similar dip in production his 2nd year. Were you calling for him to be off the team after a bad second year, especially when the first year was better than expected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywlker32 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I really wonder how much of the struggles in the defensive backfield were due to miscommunications from Mitchell's calls, V. Williams calls, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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