Tremaine Edmunds OR Derwin James VS Jaire Alexander and NO Saints 2019 1st Rd Pick

[CWood21]

8 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

I think at some point this year the voices questioning the move will start to be heard. The Saints pick offers hope in my mind of salvaging something in the deal. But my opinion of Edmunds and James (especially James) is what makes me think we'll be asking too much of the '19 NO pick to make up for the error in picking Alexander over James or Edmunds.

But in order for that to happen, you have to have James/Edmunds on a clearly different level of impact.  Either we're talking about them as All-Pro level or that Jaire is playing poorly.  I'm merely asking, which one is it?  Look, I had both Edmunds and Derwin as a higher tier than Jaire, but Jaire and an extra FRP a year from now is clearly better value.

[SpeightTheVillain]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I knew you were a closted Favrist/Wolf Apologist, now things are starting to make sense. 

Yeah this dude sounds like the kinda fan who degrades the TT/Mac regime while pumping up the Wolf/Holmgren one even though the measures of success between the regimes are nearly identical. 

 

[CWood21]

8 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Murphy being too hands on in football operations. Keeping the power to fire McCarthy and not granting that to the GM is a huge red flag.

How is having your POFO (or whatever you want to call Murphy's title) being the final decision maker a bad thing?  Why does the GM have to be that guy?  There's literally no empirical evidence that suggests this will be an issue.

8 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Murphy giving a voice to members of the executive board. There were reports he leaned on executive board members last year when determining who to hire as GM and whether to keep McCarthy. Another huge red flag

Getting an outside opinion is now considered a bad thing?  Of all the things that you could use to support your argument, this was probably the one you should have omitted.

8 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Too many cooks in the kitchen. The latest example is the report that it was Russ Ball's job to decide if a player was promoted from the practice squad. That's absurd if true. I actually want to believe that was an erroneous report by Rob Demovsky

I find the odds of that being accurate at almost zero percent chance.  Russ Ball was probably the one who made the phone call, but I doubt Russ Ball was deciding who was being promoted from the practice squad.

5 hours ago, Beast said:

The report that Russ Ball was the choice until McCarthy threatened to quit and then Murphy went with Gute as a compromise. Huge red flag number 3

Speculation.

5 hours ago, Beast said:

The current structure where essentially McCarthy, Gute, and Ball are an equal triumvirate who report weekly to Murphy. Hugest of huge red flags

So you aren't a fan of having personnel focus on what their strengths are?  Ball is a cap expert, and they made the strongest attempt to retain his services without actually offering him the GM gig.  McCarthy is the HC, so you'd figure his input comes from his coaching.  It was an attempt to streamline the issues.

[Beast]

8 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

The author tries his best to explain these things away but they are screaming, flashing, giant red flags to me. I don't expect everyone to see it the same way. Judge for yourself. Again, time will tell.

I'm too tired to read it tonight, but I'm under the assumption that Murphy wouldn't of changed it if they didn't find some flaws that they considered major.

Such as the reported Thompson completely ignoring FA at times and the reported bad commications issues. 

Though to be perfectly honest I don't understand why Ball isn't under Gute. Or what Ball's actually role is... sounds like just salary cap analysis, but he's basically know as a negotiator... but Gute is in charge of retention, so is Gute over Ball for retention purposes?

Anyway like I said, I'm guessing that there were some problems with these people or I don't think Murphy would of tried to fix it.

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Amazing what mods around here allow when they don't agree with the topic starter.

There's been enough posters pushing the boundaries on rules, yourself included.  If you have issues with the forum moderation, feel free to PM myself or @Packerraymond.

[Mr Anonymous]

Just now, CWood21 said:

But in order for that to happen, you have to have James/Edmunds on a clearly different level of impact.  Either we're talking about them as All-Pro level or that Jaire is playing poorly.  I'm merely asking, which one is it?  Look, I had both Edmunds and Derwin as a higher tier than Jaire, but Jaire and an extra FRP a year from now is clearly better value.

Sure, that's more than fair. I know I stated it somewhere but to be very clear, I think both Edmunds and James will be impact players in the NFL, perennial pro bowlers. All-Pro is a very exclusive club - I see that with James and wouldn't bet against Edmunds for the same. I don't think Alexander will be any more than a average player who you'll always be looking to replace once he shows who he is. The Saints pick will have to turn into a home run to overcome the gap. And yes, there's no doubt it could become a very valuable lottery ticket in this equation. It's a risk I don't think was worth taking with "bird in hand" at 14 (James/Edmunds).

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Speculation.

So you aren't a fan of having personnel focus on what their strengths are?  Ball is a cap expert, and they made the strongest attempt to retain his services without actually offering him the GM gig.  McCarthy is the HC, so you'd figure his input comes from his coaching.  It was an attempt to streamline the issues.

You accidentally quoted me when I wasn't the only one e to said that. Just saying...and making it know.

[Mr Anonymous]

10 minutes ago, SpeightTheVillain said:

Yeah this dude sounds like the kinda fan who degrades the TT/Mac regime while pumping up the Wolf/Holmgren one even though the measures of success between the regimes are nearly identical. 

 

That's a heck of a conclusion to make when I've barely said a word about the TT/Mac regime. I see many flaws with the current one though and that should be clear by now. By all means keep making your assumptions though.

[CWood21]

22 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

The author tries his best to explain these things away but they are screaming, flashing, giant red flags to me. I don't expect everyone to see it the same way. Judge for yourself. Again, time will tell.

So...we've been sitting here for the last few years with people calling for TT's head because he refused to use other avenues out of the draft because he had total control, and now you're adamantly against it?

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Sure, that's more than fair. I know I stated it somewhere but to be very clear, I think both Edmunds and James will be impact players in the NFL, perennial pro bowlers. All-Pro is a very exclusive club - I see that with James and wouldn't bet against Edmunds for the same. I don't think Alexander will be any more than a average player who you'll always be looking to replace once he shows who he is. The Saints pick will have to turn into a home run to overcome the gap. And yes, there's no doubt it could become a very valuable lottery ticket in this equation. It's a risk I don't think was worth taking with "bird in hand" at 14 (James/Edmunds).

But you can't make that opinion until at least 2-3 years in the league.  The only way you can make that real argument is if Derwin or Edmunds take the league by storm, which is unlikely at best.  We've been spoiled in recent years with guys like Tre'Davious White and Marshon Lattimore playing at All-Pro levels at a very early point in their career.  That's not the norm.  If you're taking James/Edmunds over Alexander and the NO pick right now, then James/Edmunds needs to play at a level significantly higher than Jaire right away.

[Mr Anonymous]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

So...we've been sitting here for the last few years with people calling for TT's head because he refused to use other avenues out of the draft because he had total control, and now you're adamantly against it?

Nope. I'm against 4 people having a say in how the team is managed. I'm dead set against Mark Murphy assuming a role similar to that of an owner. I'm dead set against him having GM, negotiator, and coach answer to him. I believe there should be a GM in charge of everything and a coach who can freely gameplan and coach with the players he's given.

The article I posted doesn't even touch on the different avenues of player acquisition so I have no idea how you conclude I'm adamantly against exploring every avenue.

[Mr Anonymous]

14 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

But you can't make that opinion until at least 2-3 years in the league.  The only way you can make that real argument is if Derwin or Edmunds take the league by storm, which is unlikely at best.  We've been spoiled in recent years with guys like Tre'Davious White and Marshon Lattimore playing at All-Pro levels at a very early point in their career.  That's not the norm.  If you're taking James/Edmunds over Alexander and the NO pick right now, then James/Edmunds needs to play at a level significantly higher than Jaire right away.

I sure can have that opinion based on my feelings formed from multiple sources about the players involved as prospects. It's pretty much 99.9% of what goes on around here during draft season. Are you telling me you don't have opinions on draft prospects every April? And waiting 3 or 4 years to state this particular opinion would be something called hindsight.

I'll be proven right when the NO '19 1st/Jaire combo amounts to far less than the player James becomes and the player Edmunds becomes. For all this hand wringing, some day people will look back and see that trading back and passing on both James and Edmunds was a huge mistake.

People not sharing in that opinion I totally get. People having such a huge problem with someone having and being willing to state an unpopular opinion, I don't understand at all. Especially a moderator.

[MacReady]

I wouldn't even classify any of my hot takes as huge mistakes if the Packers did/didn't do it.  I don't think any huge mistakes in the draft can even come close to classifying as a huge mistake once you get out of the top ten in the draft.  

This whole thread seems like whining over a team not drafting a prospect you liked.  

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Nope. I'm against 4 people having a say in how the team is managed. I'm dead set against Mark Murphy assuming a role similar to that of an owner. I'm dead set against him having GM, negotiator, and coach answer to him. I believe there should be a GM in charge of everything and a coach who can freely gameplan and coach with the players he's given.

The article I posted doesn't even touch on the different avenues of player acquisition so I have no idea how you conclude I'm adamantly against exploring every avenue.

We just had a single person (Ted Thompson) making the sole decisions, and the resounding complaints was that he refused to go outside of his comfort zone.  Many demanded he be more active in FA and explore other avenues in player acquisition.  You were nowhere to be found when those complaints were at the forefront.  Now, you're upset that they've "divided" the power up between other individuals.  And I think you're overstating the disparity of power.  Right now, Gute is the General Manager and Russ Ball is the Executive Vice President/Director of Football Operations.  Make of what you want, but the reality is that Gute is higher on the pecking order than Ball.  As for the McCarthy/Gute, I don't think there's a clear hierarchy there until we get a bigger sample size of transactions.  In an ideal world, all 3 are working as one and there's Murphy who is there as a mediator if there's a disagreement.  I don't really believe that Murphy is going to be making any football decisions, certainly not in a Dan Snyder-esque role.  He's there simply to streamline the process, and make sure that there is no lost processes.  I think that was probably one thing that McCarthy vocalized to Murphy was that TT was too stuck in his ways.

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

I sure can have that opinion based on my feelings formed from multiple sources about the players involved as prospects. It's pretty much 99.9% of what goes on around here during draft season. Are you telling me you don't have opinions on draft prospects every April? And waiting 3 or 4 years to state this particular opinion would be something called hindsight.

I'll be proven right when the NO '19 1st/Jaire combo amounts to far less than the player James becomes and the player Edmunds becomes. For all this hand wringing, some day people will look back and see that trading back and passing on both James and Edmunds was a huge mistake.

Yeah but until then , you don't have to be so darn aggressive with it...

Your making a judgement call and rubbing people's face in it, 3 years before it happens... That's going to upset people and they're going to think you're a joke and earlier that upset you.

I get that you have really strong judgements, but I think most want people to be given a chance and no super rushes to judgement... I mean none of them have played in an NFL game yet, much yet finish a season.

Cool the Jets a little, give others time (like two years) to catch up.