Rams extend Aaron Donald 6 years 135 mil 87 mil grt

[KellChippy]

23 minutes ago, chris00cm said:

Dominique Hafield and Troy Hill started important games for the Rams last season.

Yikes. Well when 9/32 defenses were included there is still a significant gap. It’s still only yards per play and doesn’t account for many factors.

If you average 4.5 pressure a game like Donald, it doesn’t matter where it’s coming from.  Cox had the second most pressures for a dt last year. Do you think he had as big of an impact rushing the passer as Cam Jordan last season?

Mack just got paid more than Donald. A lot of factors going into a contract, but I don’t think many consider Mack as good at his position as Donald is.  

[Non-Issue]

3 hours ago, KellChippy said:

If you average 4.5 pressure a game like Donald, it doesn’t matter where it’s coming from.  Cox had the second most pressures for a dt last year. Do you think he had as big of an impact rushing the passer as Cam Jordan last season?

Do you think that question can be answered based on one stat? I certainly don't think so. 
 

Quote

"Mack just got paid more than Donald. A lot of factors going into a contract, but I don’t think many consider Mack as good at his position as Donald is.

  If you know it's an irrelevant point because of the bolded, why mention it? I could make an equally irrelevant point that Mack was traded, Donald wasn't. "So who is really more valuable?"

A lot goes into that as well. 

Ultimately, PFF does what it has always done. They use objective data where they can. Add some subjectivity where needed. And come up with some ranking based on some nebulous proprietary algorithm while admitting that many pertinent factors were left out. And yet, all these years later, people are still like, "Yeah, but this PFF article says..." as if it is more worthwhile because advanced math was used. Or because SOME factors were accounted for. 

[Non-Issue]

On 9/1/2018 at 6:05 PM, KellChippy said:

This was comparing edge rushers to pass rushers in general and not specifically Donald. I’d imagine he had the best numbers of all players last year.  He was the best by eye test.

But how is edge pressure easier to avoid? It may be slightly harder to side step then step up in the pocket, but edge rush comes from the peripherals and from a wider variety of angles. 

Because an offensive line is fighting tooth and nail to maintain a pocket for the QB to step into if edge pressure is coming, while the tackles are working to direct the edge rush out and around the QB. Sacks generally come when the pocket collapses and the QB has nowhere to step up to avoid the edge rush or when the edge defender manages to get inside the tackle.

You mentioned Fletcher Cox. Take a look at these plays and tell me you can't see how important/disruptive interior penetration is and how it impacts the rest of the pass rush. If a QB doesn't have a pocket to step into, he is in big, big trouble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyWGHDYumQ8

 

[KellChippy]

1 hour ago, Non-Issue said:

Ultimately, PFF does what it has always done. They use objective data where they can. Add some subjectivity where needed. And come up with some ranking based on some nebulous proprietary algorithm while admitting that many pertinent factors were left out. And yet, all these years later, people are still like, "Yeah, but this PFF article says..." as if it is more worthwhile because advanced math was used. Or because SOME factors were accounted for. 

Yeah it’s to the point where people discount information just because its associated Pff. The only subjective stat they used was hurries, which they defined as when the quarterback visually reacts to the defenders presence. Not really that subjective either.

Edit: I should just post the article. I never meant for it to be an end to the debate but there’s a lot of interesting stuff in there. Is it against forum rules to post a PFF link? I’m not a paid member or anything 

[KellChippy]

42 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

Because an offensive line is fighting tooth and nail to maintain a pocket for the QB to step into if edge pressure is coming, while the tackles are working to direct the edge rush out and around the QB. Sacks generally come when the pocket collapses and the QB has nowhere to step up to avoid the edge rush or when the edge defender manages to get inside the tackle.

You mentioned Fletcher Cox. Take a look at these plays and tell me you can't see how important/disruptive interior penetration is and how it impacts the rest of the pass rush. If a QB doesn't have a pocket to step into, he is in big, big trouble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyWGHDYumQ8

 

I know Cox is amazing, I’ve seen nearly every snap of his career. Im sure if you watched Cam Jordan’s highlights you would see how much of a problem pressure off the edge is.

 Edge rush leads to more sacks and turnovers because the quarterback often can’t see the hits coming. 

 

[Non-Issue]

1 hour ago, KellChippy said:

Yeah it’s to the point where people discount information just because its associated Pff. The only subjective stat they used was hurries, which they defined as when the quarterback visually reacts to the defenders presence. Not really that subjective either.

Edit: I should just post the article. I never meant for it to be an end to the debate but there’s a lot of interesting stuff in there. Is it against forum rules to post a PFF link? I’m not a paid member or anything 

I dont discount it because it is associated with PFF. I discount it because of its flaws. When a QB "visually reacts" to the defenders presence can be very subjective. What factors they leave in and leave out can be very subjective. Their algorithm subjectively assigns weight to factors. 

I read the article. Thankfully they fully admit that the very limited scope of the data clearly necessitates further research before anyone can take the findings at face value.

[RaidersAreOne]

This and the Mack contract are both ridiculous. 

[Gannon12]

1 minute ago, RaidersAreOne said:

This and the Mack contract are both ridiculous. 

Could have saved an African nation with those numbers.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

1 minute ago, Gannon12 said:

Could have saved an African nation with those numbers.

Yea those selfish pigs in LA only care about football

[Forge]

3 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

This and the Mack contract are both ridiculous. 

Pretty much in line with the highest defensive contracts signed previous. 

[Non-Issue]

1 hour ago, KellChippy said:

I know Cox is amazing, I’ve seen nearly every snap of his career. Im sure if you watched Cam Jordan’s highlights you would see how much of a problem pressure off the edge is.

 Edge rush leads to more sacks and turnovers because the quarterback often can’t see the hits coming. 

 

And the edge rush is often unsuccessful when there is no interior penetration. One step forward essentially negates a huge swath of edge pressure because the vast majority of edge pressure is seen. But when they don't have that pocket to step into, and the end result is a sack from the edge... does the disruption from the interior that led to the sack count for the edge rusher of the interior rusher?

[Gannon12]

Just now, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Yea those selfish pigs in LA only care about football

LOL. Please be kind I’m still in shock from the Gruden earthquake from hell.

[KellChippy]

1 minute ago, Non-Issue said:

 when they don't have that pocket to step into, and the end result is a sack from the edge... does the disruption from the interior that led to the sack count for the edge rusher of the interior rusher?

The interior guy was more disruptive in your scenario. Just like if someone comes off the edge and forces the qb to move around the pocket and into another defender, the edge guy caused the sack.  

 

[KellChippy]

42 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

I dont discount it because it is associated with PFF. I discount it because of its flaws. When a QB "visually reacts" to the defenders presence can be very subjective. What factors they leave in and leave out can be very subjective. Their algorithm subjectively assigns weight to factors. 

I read the article. Thankfully they fully admit that the very limited scope of the data clearly necessitates further research before anyone can take the findings at face value.

What algorithm? 

[Non-Issue]

43 minutes ago, KellChippy said:

What algorithm? 

"While pressure from the edge appears to happen more often and has more value than pressure from the interior, we’ve seen examples within our data where the more valuable trait among two choices is not the more stable one. To see if this may be the case for pass-rushers, we used a clustering algorithm to group players into broad position groups using our PFF player participation data."

But I wasn't being specific. I was just being general. Trying to point out that the sites findings are often steeped in subjectivity. The simpler stats aren't. But the more "in depth" they try to be, the more they are forced to rely on subjectivity to fill the holes.