WEEK 4 GDT - Steelers vs. Ravens SNF

[warfelg]

6 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I was deathly wrong about Jarvis....but I thought he had enough tools to work with coming out, even with his flaws.    Changed the way I viewed pass rushing prospects going forward.

PS....werent you one of the guys who liked Dion Jordan in that draft?    Not calling you out or anything, but he was a guy that I never thought would be good, but numerous Steeler fans did.

We all have our hits and misses.

I was thinking about this and I realized what fooled most of us about Jarvis was how good the rest of that Georgia defense was that year.  That's the year I started to take LOC seriously because I realized Jarvis faced 0 quality OT's that year.

[Chieferific]

7 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I was deathly wrong about Jarvis....but I thought he had enough tools to work with coming out, even with his flaws.    Changed the way I viewed pass rushing prospects going forward.

PS....werent you one of the guys who liked Dion Jordan in that draft?    Not calling you out or anything, but he was a guy that I never thought would be good, but numerous Steeler fans did.

We all have our hits and misses.

No I wasn't high on Jordan. Too tall and lean for my liking tho I did like Ziggy but he played nastier. Of course we have our misses. I will say this, I feel like I was one of the few that pointed out Dupree's slow get off. Many here were going ga-ga over his "off the charts" SPARQ. I didn't see it translate to the field. As stated before, his teammate Smith looked like the better player to me. And no we certainly can't know for sure but those times they did pass on a player that then becomes pretty good it's like "Duh. Didn't you see that coming?" That's all I'm trying to say. 

[warfelg]

16 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

No I wasn't high on Jordan. Too tall and lean for my liking tho I did like Ziggy but he played nastier. Of course we have our misses. I will say this, I feel like I was one of the few that pointed out Dupree's slow get off. Many here were going ga-ga over his "off the charts" SPARQ. I didn't see it translate to the field. As stated before, his teammate Smith looked like the better player to me. And no we certainly can't know for sure but those times they did pass on a player that then becomes pretty good it's like "Duh. Didn't you see that coming?" That's all I'm trying to say. 

Your also, IMO, missing the key things that play into all of this:  Coaching and player's mental makeup.

Our coaching sucks.  I loved Ziggy Ansah coming out for the same reason I loved Bud Dupree.  Athletic guys that were raw because of a lack of coaching in college that relied on them to use their natural gifts.  I think if we had Ziggy Ansah coming out of college he would have busted just like Dupree did.  Our coaching is not helping these guys get better.  That's why the hope for TJ Watt is that he soaks in everything from JJ and they work together on improving.

On the opposite end with Jarvis Jones....well we knew about the spine issue.  But he was lacking in the mental and drive department.  It came out that he was a guy that didn't like the gym.  Didn't do the cardio work.  Basically NCAA was 'too easy' for him that he thought he was better than he was.

 

The point there is there's things we don't know about the play into why some guys do well and why some bust.  To me that's why it comes down to more than just seeing a guy like Za'Darious Smith is good, and Dupree is an athlete.  What's the mental aspect of these guys?  You take the risk on Dupree because with his athleticism his upside is much higher, but then you must trust that you have the right coaching staff to help him reach it.  But we don't have that.  Smith is a good pass rusher, but at the times his limited athleticism and run stopping game lacking, you looked at him as a rotational at best player.  Well it tells me that this staff, all of coaching/FO/scouting, isn't looking for a guy to play situational like that.  So he likely wasn't even on Colbert's radar because he was so rotational.

[Chieferific]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Your also, IMO, missing the key things that play into all of this:  Coaching and player's mental makeup.

Our coaching sucks.  I loved Ziggy Ansah coming out for the same reason I loved Bud Dupree.  Athletic guys that were raw because of a lack of coaching in college that relied on them to use their natural gifts.  I think if we had Ziggy Ansah coming out of college he would have busted just like Dupree did.  Our coaching is not helping these guys get better.  That's why the hope for TJ Watt is that he soaks in everything from JJ and they work together on improving.

On the opposite end with Jarvis Jones....well we knew about the spine issue.  But he was lacking in the mental and drive department.  It came out that he was a guy that didn't like the gym.  Didn't do the cardio work.  Basically NCAA was 'too easy' for him that he thought he was better than he was.

 

The point there is there's things we don't know about the play into why some guys do well and why some bust.  To me that's why it comes down to more than just seeing a guy like Za'Darious Smith is good, and Dupree is an athlete.  What's the mental aspect of these guys?  You take the risk on Dupree because with his athleticism his upside is much higher, but then you must trust that you have the right coaching staff to help him reach it.  But we don't have that.  Smith is a good pass rusher, but at the times his limited athleticism and run stopping game lacking, you looked at him as a rotational at best player.  Well it tells me that this staff, all of coaching/FO/scouting, isn't looking for a guy to play situational like that.  So he likely wasn't even on Colbert's radar because he was so rotational.

I think we're over thinking it here. When you watch tape on a guy, there are some that pop out at you. Those are your early Rd guys. Then there are some that have some skills you can see could be improved upon or are solid already. Those are your Mid Rd guys. Then there are some that you can see fitting some sort of minor role and/or have Boom/Bust potential. Those are your Late Rd guys.  Dupree was/is and athlete playing football. That's not a RD 1 guy IMO. Smith is a try hard strong/physical player. I viewed him more as a run stuffing DE but the Pass rushing ability has not surprised me. I saw him as a Mid Rdr. And yes, I did see him as a rotational guy. Still do. I can understand your point in regards to coaching but I have never evaluated a player and thought..."What can Butler/Tomlin teach him". Maybe I need to start. 

[warfelg]

20 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

I think we're over thinking it here. When you watch tape on a guy, there are some that pop out at you. Those are your early Rd guys. Then there are some that have some skills you can see could be improved upon or are solid already. Those are your Mid Rd guys. Then there are some that you can see fitting some sort of minor role and/or have Boom/Bust potential. Those are your Late Rd guys.  Dupree was/is and athlete playing football. That's not a RD 1 guy IMO. Smith is a try hard strong/physical player. I viewed him more as a run stuffing DE but the Pass rushing ability has not surprised me. I saw him as a Mid Rdr. And yes, I did see him as a rotational guy. Still do. I can understand your point in regards to coaching but I have never evaluated a player and thought..."What can Butler/Tomlin teach him". Maybe I need to start. 

Without sounding like a jerk, I can tell you 100% I am not ever thinking it because what I mentioned are the exact things they talk about. This is why Tomlin likes Juniors that declare. He feels he’s getting their senior year, bypassing one year of bad habits and bad coaching for NFL level coaching. It’s why we’re sucking at drafting. They are stuck drafting for their system rather than drafting skill sets and seeing how they can make use of them. 

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

Without sounding like a jerk, I can tell you 100% I am not ever thinking it because what I mentioned are the exact things they talk about. This is why Tomlin likes Juniors that declare. He feels he’s getting their senior year, bypassing one year of bad habits and bad coaching for NFL level coaching. It’s why we’re sucking at drafting. They are stuck drafting for their system rather than drafting skill sets and seeing how they can make use of them. 

Agreed. I will say tho, I have no problem with drafting to fit your scheme. However, that scheme had better work. I have no idea what type of scheme they are trying to run or why they draft the players they draft. I do know it isn't working. This past draft, I'm confident they KNEW they were going to draft Washington in the 2nd Rd no matter what. Given this, they felt they HAD to take Edmunds in the 1st. They try to dictate the draft by reaching instead of letting the draft come to them. They'd rather be aggressive by reaching then aggressive by moving up/down. It's insanity. 

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, Chieferific said:

Agreed. I will say tho, I have no problem with drafting to fit your scheme. However, that scheme had better work. I have no idea what type of scheme they are trying to run or why they draft the players they draft. I do know it isn't working. This past draft, I'm confident they KNEW they were going to draft Washington in the 2nd Rd no matter what. Given this, they felt they HAD to take Edmunds in the 1st. They try to dictate the draft by reaching instead of letting the draft come to them. They'd rather be aggressive by reaching then aggressive by moving up/down. It's insanity. 

 Now this I don’t disagree with. But again that’s where it comes to them drafting to their scheme rather than a player. I know most would have scoffed but when we didn’t more up for Evans I wanted Sony Michel so bad. 

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

 Now this I don’t disagree with. But again that’s where it comes to them drafting to their scheme rather than a player. I know most would have scoffed but when we didn’t more up for Evans I wanted Sony Michel so bad. 

I wouldn't have minded Sony. I would have taken Landry over him but I knew the FO wouldn't because they didn't view OLB as a major need. I did not like the Edmunds pick because I thought it was too early but also other Safeties could be had later and were better players imo.

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

I wouldn't have minded Sony. I would have taken Landry over him but I knew the FO wouldn't because they didn't view OLB as a major need. I did not like the Edmunds pick because I thought it was too early but also other Safeties could be had later and were better players imo.

That I agree with on the safety thing. That’s why I talked about the fast riser thing. It’s usually noise from a team or two trying to make someone fall. 

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, warfelg said:

I was thinking about this and I realized what fooled most of us about Jarvis was how good the rest of that Georgia defense was that year.  That's the year I started to take LOC seriously because I realized Jarvis faced 0 quality OT's that year.

watch the OT's dupree has on the highlight tape.  Like all stats, it's who you play. colbert is learning this. 

@ChieferificI was also one of the ones that thought dupree was slow off the snap, I never understood what others saw that they thought would translate. Athleticism and combine numbers don't justify RD1 pick, history has shown this. 

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

I think if we had Ziggy Ansah coming out of college he would have busted just like Dupree did.  Our coaching is not helping these guys get better.  That's why the hope for TJ Watt is that he soaks in everything from JJ and they work together on improving.

This sums up what one of our problems is. 

 

3 hours ago, Chieferific said:

Dupree was/is and athlete playing football. That's not a RD 1 guy IMO

Exactly. If this player is there RD4, then it is worth a try, but not RD1 and guaranteed starter for 4 years.  I already know Adeyini will be better based on limited preseason play, he has more natural pass rush skills , hand use, shedding and moves.  Time is running out for Dupree because they aren't pulling Watt or better not.

 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

This is why Tomlin likes Juniors that declare. He feels he’s getting their senior year, bypassing one year of bad habits and bad coaching for NFL level coaching. It’s why we’re sucking at drafting. They are stuck drafting for their system rather than drafting skill sets and seeing how they can make use of them. 

Is it tomlin to blame or colbert? I agree with everything else thats for sure

 

2 hours ago, Chieferific said:

They'd rather be aggressive by reaching then aggressive by moving up/down. It's insanity. 

This could be colbert again. I noticed this , and what would this team be like without gifts like DDC, Watt and the late round steal in AB? 

 

2 hours ago, Chieferific said:

I did not like the Edmunds pick because I thought it was too early but also other Safeties could be had later and were better players imo.

Too early for me to be sure, but I am disappointed in Edmunds thus far  in coverage. and tackling.  He has made some plays, and can catch really well, that was a nice int/return he had.  How did you feel when they drafted burns?

 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

That’s why I talked about the fast riser thing. It’s usually noise from a team or two trying to make someone fall. 

This is a good point. Speed kills (again) 

Colbert is the problem, unless tomlin is forcing these picks. Rooney needs to solve this or this team is going to be near last place for quite a while. The league has parody and everyone will have a franchise QB since QB's don't want to retire .  In the upcoming years as a result, the better operated teams will show, as having legit QB's somewhat helps level the playing field. 

[Chieferific]

I don't know who to point the finger at. But I will say this....Pre-Tomlin, the best OLB Colbert has been in the draft room for was Haggans. This best CB was Ike. The best OLB with Tomlin is Woodley and the best CB is Gay. I think Colbert has a decent eye for the trenches and certainly WR and has made some nice ILB selections. After that, it's kinda Meh. 

[3rivers]

The team has gone out of it's way on offence, possibly to keep ben happy. Now it's time for the offence to bail out the D and win the games. Will it happen? I don't see the D making major improvements this season unless a CB really steps up as well as a OLB and safety. Perhaps add ILB to that, so IOW we need 4 positions to greatly improve now.

[MOSteelers56]

4 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

The team has gone out of it's way on offence, possibly to keep ben happy. Now it's time for the offence to bail out the D and win the games. Will it happen? I don't see the D making major improvements this season unless a CB really steps up as well as a OLB and safety. Perhaps add ILB to that, so IOW we need 4 positions to greatly improve now.

I don't think it's quite that dim. If we can get a bit better at getting to the QB, we'll be fine. A better pass rush will improve the secondary and ILB's greatly. I think the main problem with our defense right now is Heyward and Tuitt are both playing like bums. They need to command and beat double teams and put pressure in QB's faces. They aren't and we can't stop anyone. A little more pressure and those easy completions that gash the middle of our defense will be a little more rushed and easier to cover or take away. 

[3rivers]

12 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

I don't know who to point the finger at. But I will say this....Pre-Tomlin, the best OLB Colbert has been in the draft room for was Haggans. This best CB was Ike. The best OLB with Tomlin is Woodley and the best CB is Gay. I think Colbert has a decent eye for the trenches and certainly WR and has made some nice ILB selections. After that, it's kinda Meh. 

so 1 pro bowler (Woodley - Hendricks award winner makes it an easy pick especially in RD2, another gift IMO) ) and thats it for 10 years of drafting at LB and CB? Maybe Rooney should check the classifieds for a new drafftroom

[3rivers]

1 minute ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I don't think it's quite that dim. If we can get a bit better at getting to the QB, we'll be fine. A better pass rush will improve the secondary and ILB's greatly. I think the main problem with our defense right now is Heyward and Tuitt are both playing like bums. They need to command and beat double teams and put pressure in QB's faces. They aren't and we can't stop anyone. A little more pressure and those easy completions that gash the middle of our defense will be a little more rushed and easier to cover or take away. 

Normally people would agree with your comment, the problem now is we don't have enough players on the field or too many, and then they don't know assignments.  When they do know assignments, they often are defeated obviously and it's easy for us to notice this.  I am expecting the D to keep failing unless we have really bad weather on our side or if we decide to run the ball and own TOP.