turtle28 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: He used to live in the Broadneck area and I heard nothing but great things about him and his wife. It's nothing personal, and he's a decent enough analyst for the game. But man, Redskins fans put this guy on a pedestal that he never earned or deserved based on his play on the field. He almost single handily turned around the 01 season when we were 0-5 with that great int return for a TD vs the Panthers where he had our only TD in that game I believe. His 01 & 02 seasons were arguably All-Pro level. His 03 season was pro bowl level, he was a tremendous player when the coordinator put him in positions to make plays as an attacking blitzing LB - kind of like how Zach Brown should be used - especially on 3rd and long as a blitzing LB/ delayed pass rusher. Let’s not forget, Gregg & Gibbs also let arguably the best Undrafted ILB or even this century period in Redskins history by Marty Scottenheimer - Antonio Pierce - all he did was go win a super bowl a few years later. Then, they were part of the decision to not re-sign Ryan Clark, they didn’t even offer him a contract! Instead they signed Adam Archuletta. Wtf? 😂 Woz always says how I always wanted the Redskins to run a 3-4 defense and it’s longer than he even knows. The perfect time for the Redskins to run the 3-4 was back in 04 & 05 RDE: Phillip Daniels NT: Joe Salave’a LDE: Renaldo Wynn ROLB: Lavar Arrington MIKE: Antonio Pierce WILB: Lemar Marshall LOLB: Marcus Washington RCB: Fred Smoot LCB: Shawn Springs SS: Ryan Clark FS: Sean Taylor That would’ve been a heck of an attacking and playmaking defense. I used to argue this before everyone was in here was not the board I believe in 04 and I think Woz joined in 05 so maybe he remembers under my old screen name avbanig. Edited February 15, 2019 by turtle28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 4 hours ago, lavar703 said: Ahh I disagree. He was coming along just fine until the knee injuries started to kill his career. He didn’t live it up to what he could’ve been but he certainly wasn’t a bust. With that said, who puts him on a pedestal? He’s probably the most disliked former Skin that I can remember. Him & Rak, pretty unbelievable bc they’re two of the best LBs we’ve ever had suit up for this franchise. Probably top 20 Redskins LBs all time and definitely top 10 LBs since we last won a super bowl 27 years ago along with Kerrigan, Fletcher, Harvey, Pierce and Marcus Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, lavar703 said: I think it’s because we were so devoid of talent at that time that LaVar was pushed up a few levels higher than he should’ve been. Again, the real shame was we had Lavar, Pierce and Clark all together in 04. Gregg/Gibbs decided all three weren’t worth the money over the 04 & 05 seasons. The issue is that you just can’t replace that kind of talent with just anyone. Not re-signing Clark led to us drafting Landry #6 overall, then losing Pierce led us to signing Fletcher to a massive bigger contract in 07, and while Fletcher was great against the run, he wasn’t as good as Pierce in coverage. Gregg is a great defensive coordinator, but he’s also arrogant like most great coaches and thought he could plug and play anyone in those spots. Well, in 06 we found out that ish wasn’t true! Edited February 15, 2019 by turtle28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 8 hours ago, Doc Draper said: A lot of people thought he was all pro level and he wasn’t. Good player, but didn’t live up to his draft slot or his potential. He had splashy plays but wasn’t dependable or consistent. I agree injuries hurt him too. But he does seem like a very likable guy now Exactly my point, and for the fans that I know, Arrington is God-level as a player, and it just wasn't the case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 13 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: Exactly my point, and for the fans that I know, Arrington is God-level as a player, and it just wasn't the case. His 02 season was All-Pro level: 92 tackles, 11 sacks, 8 passes defensed and 4 forced fumbles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 On 2/15/2019 at 4:10 AM, turtle28 said: Woz always says how I always wanted the Redskins to run a 3-4 defense and it’s longer than he even knows. The perfect time for the Redskins to run the 3-4 was back in 04 & 05 RDE: Phillip Daniels NT: Joe Salave’a LDE: Renaldo Wynn ROLB: Lavar Arrington MIKE: Antonio Pierce WILB: Lemar Marshall LOLB: Marcus Washington RCB: Fred Smoot LCB: Shawn Springs SS: Ryan Clark FS: Sean Taylor That would’ve been a heck of an attacking and playmaking defense. I used to argue this before everyone was in here was not the board I believe in 04 and I think Woz joined in 05 so maybe he remembers under my old screen name avbanig. In 04-05, it would have made a lot of sense because the league hadn't made the 3-4 move yet. As I have said mulitple times, the 3-4 defense is an arbitrage defense. What I mean by that is that it takes advantages of market failures in identifying talent. For instance, DeMarcus Ware and Jay Ratliff were great picks for the Cowboys because Dallas (under Parcells) identified them as talented players who were "tweeners." They didn't fit in a 4-3, but their skills matched what could be done in a 3-4 at a reasonable cost. This is in part because most college teams do not run a 3-4, so teams have to project how a player might play standing up. When there are only a few competitors in this space, you can take risks on guys who don't fit. The problem is that today half of the NFL runs a 3-4. This means you cannot take advantage of those market failures anymore. As such, unless you are heavily invested in it (Pittsburgh and Baltimore come to mind), it isn't worth switching to. Washington is now somewhat invested in it, so I guess they stay, but they've been mediocre to poor in evaluating talent for it. Only in the past couple of years have they had reasonable success at getting players that fit what they want to do, even though they've been running the 3-4 for nearly a decade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Woz said: In 04-05, it would have made a lot of sense because the league hadn't made the 3-4 move yet. As I have said mulitple times, the 3-4 defense is an arbitrage defense. What I mean by that is that it takes advantages of market failures in identifying talent. For instance, DeMarcus Ware and Jay Ratliff were great picks for the Cowboys because Dallas (under Parcells) identified them as talented players who were "tweeners." They didn't fit in a 4-3, but their skills matched what could be done in a 3-4 at a reasonable cost. This is in part because most college teams do not run a 3-4, so teams have to project how a player might play standing up. When there are only a few competitors in this space, you can take risks on guys who don't fit. The problem is that today half of the NFL runs a 3-4. This means you cannot take advantage of those market failures anymore. As such, unless you are heavily invested in it (Pittsburgh and Baltimore come to mind), it isn't worth switching to. Washington is now somewhat invested in it, so I guess they stay, but they've been mediocre to poor in evaluating talent for it. Only in the past couple of years have they had reasonable success at getting players that fit what they want to do, even though they've been running the 3-4 for nearly a decade. It made sense because of the personnel the Redskins had at the time. Lavar & Marcus Washington rushing the passer and coming off the edge would’ve actually given our defense a consistent pass rush back in 04 and 05 w/o blitzing, which is the only thing we lacked those years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiphoon Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Woz said: In 04-05, it would have made a lot of sense because the league hadn't made the 3-4 move yet. As I have said mulitple times, the 3-4 defense is an arbitrage defense. What I mean by that is that it takes advantages of market failures in identifying talent. For instance, DeMarcus Ware and Jay Ratliff were great picks for the Cowboys because Dallas (under Parcells) identified them as talented players who were "tweeners." They didn't fit in a 4-3, but their skills matched what could be done in a 3-4 at a reasonable cost. This is in part because most college teams do not run a 3-4, so teams have to project how a player might play standing up. When there are only a few competitors in this space, you can take risks on guys who don't fit. The problem is that today half of the NFL runs a 3-4. This means you cannot take advantage of those market failures anymore. As such, unless you are heavily invested in it (Pittsburgh and Baltimore come to mind), it isn't worth switching to. Washington is now somewhat invested in it, so I guess they stay, but they've been mediocre to poor in evaluating talent for it. Only in the past couple of years have they had reasonable success at getting players that fit what they want to do, even though they've been running the 3-4 for nearly a decade. Belicheck also did it in NE. It's why they were so successful with their earlier defenses. Because you could get a tweener who was a Pro Bowl/Impact starter talent in a 3-4 in the 2nd or 3rd round. And when half the league switched to 3-4, he started switching back 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) We do realize the reason that Shanahan switched to the 3-4 was because of Belichick, correct? The story goes that in 09 when Shanahan had the year off that he studied Belichick’s 3-4 defenses and that's the entire reason we made the switch in 2010. Edited February 22, 2019 by turtle28 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiphoon Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, turtle28 said: We do realize the reason that Shanahan switched to the 3-4 was because of Belichick, correct? The story goes that in 09 when Shanahan had the year off that he studied Belichick’s 3-4 defenses and that's the entire reason we made the switch in 2010. Correct. But again Turtle, the damage had been done. Belicheck was able to grab more high impact tweener players (who got overlooked by 4-3 teams) early on when very few teams were running the 3-4. By the time we started doing it, we weren't getting the same value out of it because quite a bit more teams were also snatching up the tweeners. Which hindered our progress. Bill bought at the low point of the market. We bought at the high point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 13 hours ago, Thaiphoon said: Belicheck also did it in NE. It's why they were so successful with their earlier defenses. Because you could get a tweener who was a Pro Bowl/Impact starter talent in a 3-4 in the 2nd or 3rd round. And when half the league switched to 3-4, he started switching back And even Baltimore is somewhat evolving, check this out from the Russell Street Report- https://russellstreetreport.com/2017/02/01/street-talk/ravens-4-3-defense/ Teams are looking for guys who can fill a variety of roles because of the variety of offensive packages being run today . The days of saying "we run a 3-4" or "we run a 4-3" are really just about over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said: And even Baltimore is somewhat evolving, check this out from the Russell Street Report- https://russellstreetreport.com/2017/02/01/street-talk/ravens-4-3-defense/ Teams are looking for guys who can fill a variety of roles because of the variety of offensive packages being run today . The days of saying "we run a 3-4" or "we run a 4-3" are really just about over. Agree with this. And on the overall argument, my position has always been “just stick with what you’re doing.” That was the biggest mistake of all by Shanahan, messing with a decent little group of 4-3 defenders that they had in place before he came aboard. The only guy in the entire front 7 group who was actually a better fit for a 3-4 was Brian Orakpo. Maybe Kedric Golston. The duo of oversized DEs Philip Daniels and Renaldo Wynn would have been decent fits, perhaps, but they were a combined age of about 146 at that point. It was a terrible move for Andre Carter, it basically destroyed Rocky McIntosh’s career, it certainly wasn’t a great fit for London Fletcher, and basically incinerated the 3rd rounder we’d just used on Jeremy Jarmon. And worst of all, it ensured that we would never get anything out of our $100M Haynesworth investment. Maybe we never would have because of who he was as a person — but we damn sure flushed a lot of money and a lot of talent right down the toilet by trying to force him to play as a two-gap NT. The worst thing you can do as a franchise is just keep changing your mind and reversing course. It wastes all the work you’ve done building to that point. Talent is hard to acquire in the NFL — it’s crippling to just knowingly and willingly render useless the talent you do have in order to chase the newest craze (or head coach’s obsession). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 22 hours ago, turtle28 said: It made sense because of the personnel the Redskins had at the time. Lavar & Marcus Washington rushing the passer and coming off the edge would’ve actually given our defense a consistent pass rush back in 04 and 05 w/o blitzing, which is the only thing we lacked those years. Maybe, maybe not. It would be an open question whether those guys could convert to standing up. It's why Andre Carter fell into our laps; he couldn't adjust to the 3-4 so the 49ers (I think?) cut him. We put him back with his hand in the dirt, and he excelled ... until we converted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 19 hours ago, Thaiphoon said: Belicheck also did it in NE. It's why they were so successful with their earlier defenses. Because you could get a tweener who was a Pro Bowl/Impact starter talent in a 3-4 in the 2nd or 3rd round. And when half the league switched to 3-4, he started switching back ^--- THIS. OH SO THIS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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