Better Player: Steve Young or Peyton Manning

[x0x]

Young was mobile along with the accuracy. 

[childofpudding]

7 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

Are you saying that the 2006 Colts carried Peyton to a SB win? There's the case to be made for his 2015 win, but I don't see Osweiler beating the Pats and then the Panthers. Manning's arm was gone, but his mind was still there to make up for it.

It still stands though that he was able to change squads and win 2 SBs and appear in 4 (with 4 different HCs mind you).

In the playoffs overall? Yes, absolutely. In the last 20 years, Manning has the worst two playoff runs of any SB winning QB when looking at passer rating, as well as the two worst when looking at ANY/A.

[Kiwibrown]

Manning is a better passer, young a better runner. So manning.

[NJerseypaint]

4 hours ago, childofpudding said:

In the playoffs overall? Yes, absolutely. In the last 20 years, Manning has the worst two playoff runs of any SB winning QB when looking at passer rating, as well as the two worst when looking at ANY/A.

In the 2006 playoffs he faced 3 top 5 defenses. His worst game was away against the league's #1 def (Ravens), but he threw all over the Pats and was solid against the Bears. To say he was carried is silly.

[childofpudding]

11 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

In the 2006 playoffs he faced 3 top 5 defenses. His worst game was away against the league's #1 def (Ravens), but he threw all over the Pats and was solid against the Bears. To say he was carried is silly.

Only good game he had was vs. the Pats. What defenses he faced doesnt matter. He was still carried, and to say otherwise is what is silly. See my post above. It was one of the two worst playoff runs for a SB winning QB in the last 20 years, with Manning in 2015 being the other. The stats amd the eyetest bear it out. He was OK in the SB, but the Colts had more than 200 yards rushing and their D forced a ton of TOs, including the pick 6. The weather and the Bears defense definitely played a part, but he was still carried.

Manning actually played well in other postseasons overall that he didnt win the SB, but on the two where he won, he was very clearly carried.

[NJerseypaint]

2 hours ago, childofpudding said:

Only good game he had was vs. the Pats. What defenses he faced doesnt matter. He was still carried, and to say otherwise is what is silly. See my post above. It was one of the two worst playoff runs for a SB winning QB in the last 20 years, with Manning in 2015 being the other. The stats amd the eyetest bear it out. He was OK in the SB, but the Colts had more than 200 yards rushing and their D forced a ton of TOs, including the pick 6. The weather and the Bears defense definitely played a part, but he was still carried.

Manning actually played well in other postseasons overall that he didnt win the SB, but on the two where he won, he was very clearly carried.

How does the quality of defense not matter when evaluating offensive performance? Scoring 12 points against the #1 scoring defense in the league is different than scoring 12 against the worst. Considerably different.

And the amount of rushing yards doesn't discount Manning's performance. He still went 25/38 (65%) for 247YDS 1TD 1INT against the vaunted Bears defense. Considering opponents averaged less than 200 yards passing per game, completed 56% of passes, and allowed an average of 1.125 passing TDs per game for the season, that's a good performance.

[childofpudding]

1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said:

How does the quality of defense not matter when evaluating offensive performance? Scoring 12 points against the #1 scoring defense in the league is different than scoring 12 against the worst. Considerably different.

And the amount of rushing yards doesn't discount Manning's performance. He still went 25/38 (65%) for 247YDS 1TD 1INT against the vaunted Bears defense. Considering opponents averaged less than 200 yards passing per game, completed 56% of passes, and allowed an average of 1.125 passing TDs per game for the season, that's a good performance.

Being carried doesnt depend on quality of defense. The team's rush game and defense were much more responsible for the win. So they carried. That's all. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Three TDs and 7 INTs and one of the worst passer ratings and ANY/A in the last 20 years isnt good no matter the defenses faced. Defenses faced in the playoffs are almost always better than the regular season.

[Elky]

Career wise, Peyton. At their respective bests, Young.

[NJerseypaint]

15 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

Being carried doesnt depend on quality of defense. The team's rush game and defense were much more responsible for the win. So they carried. That's all. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Three TDs and 7 INTs and one of the worst passer ratings and ANY/A in the last 20 years isnt good no matter the defenses faced. Defenses faced in the playoffs are almost always better than the regular season.

I'm not gonna go into passer rating, because he's largely weighed down by his ints against KC (though he played well by all other measures) and his performance against BAL. I will agree to disagree though. The pick 6 and the 5th turnover by the Colts D was in the fourth with the lead was already had. Same for Rhodes's rushing numbers. 30 of his yards came from winding down the clock late in the 4th and another 30 from a single run. His single score came from a drive that Peyton lead going 3/3 for 44 yards. Addai held his own too, but 77 yards on 19 carries is far from carrying a team. I just don't see how the defense and rushing game was more responsible for the win than Peyton who's performance accounted for 16 of 29 points scored.

[childofpudding]

1 minute ago, NJerseypaint said:

I'm not gonna go into passer rating, because he's largely weighed down by his ints against KC (though he played well by all other measures) and his performance against BAL. I will agree to disagree though. The pick 6 and the 5th turnover by the Colts D was in the fourth with the lead was already had. Same for Rhodes's rushing numbers. 30 of his yards came from winding down the clock late in the 4th and another 30 from a single run. His single score came from a drive that Peyton lead going 3/3 for 44 yards. Addai held his own too, but 77 yards on 19 carries is far from carrying a team. I just don't see how the defense and rushing game was more responsible for the win than Peyton who's performance accounted for 16 of 29 points scored.

Interceptions matter. Interceptions are bad. Manning threw them. And his passer rating in the Baltimore game was much worse, at 39.6. I can see why you don't want to talk about passer rating in that playoff run, as it accurately reflects how Manning played.

Anyway, if you want to talk about relative to competition, then consider this:

• Manning's passer rating in the playoff run was 70.5, or 5% better than what his opponents allowed that year
• The Colts' offense rushed for 151 yards/game, or 55% better than what their opponents allowed that year
• The Colts' defense allowed a passer rating of 62.8, or 23% lower than what their opponents had that year
• The Colts' defense allowed 83 rushing yards/game, or 31% lower than what their opponents had that year

Yep. The Colts' rush game and defense carried the team in that playoff run.

[NJerseypaint]

2 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

Interceptions matter. Interceptions are bad. Manning threw them. And his passer rating in the Baltimore game was much worse, at 39.6. I can see why you don't want to talk about passer rating in that playoff run, as it accurately reflects how Manning played.

Anyway, if you want to talk about relative to competition, then consider this:

• Manning's passer rating in the playoff run was 70.5, or 5% better than what his opponents allowed that year
• The Colts' offense rushed for 151 yards/game, or 55% better than what their opponents allowed that year
• The Colts' defense allowed a passer rating of 62.8, or 23% lower than what their opponents had that year
• The Colts' defense allowed 83 rushing yards/game, or 31% lower than what their opponents had that year

Yep. The Colts' rush game and defense carried the team in that playoff run.

By this measure I wouldn't be surprised if most Super Bowl winning QBs were "carried" by their teams in the playoffs then. Peyton Manning carried his own weight in 3/4 games in the playoffs. The defense played well, and so did the rushing attack, but it's not like Manning was along for the ride or weighing them down. You can say he was carried in 2015 when he was mostly game managing and I'd say that's fair. Without his defense, Manning doesn't win his second SB. You can argue that any number of QBs could take his place and Broncos still win it. 2006 is not like this. Manning played a key role in them winning those games, as much as the defense and the running game. As I see it, they bailed him out in Baltimore, but he returned the favor against NE. Everything else was equal.

[childofpudding]

2 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

By this measure I wouldn't be surprised if most Super Bowl winning QBs were "carried" by their teams in the playoffs then. Peyton Manning carried his own weight in 3/4 games in the playoffs. The defense played well, and so did the rushing attack, but it's not like Manning was along for the ride or weighing them down. You can say he was carried in 2015 when he was mostly game managing and I'd say that's fair. Without his defense, Manning doesn't win his second SB. You can argue that any number of QBs could take his place and Broncos still win it. 2006 is not like this. Manning played a key role in them winning those games, as much as the defense and the running game. As I see it, they bailed him out in Baltimore, but he returned the favor against NE. Everything else was equal.

When a QB throws 3 TDs to 7 INTs and has a passer rating in the 70s, yeah, he's weighing them down.

Everything else was equal? Him throwing 3 interceptions while the team had 250 yards rushing and the defense forced 3 turnovers and kept the Chiefs to 126 yards of total offense was equal? Nope. Him throwing 1 TD and 1 INT while the team had 250 yards rushing and the defense forced 5 turnovers, including a pick-6, was equal? Nope.

There's really no need to even try to elevate Manning's 2006 playoff run. It was bad, and nothing you've said has redeemed that. He's obviously one of the GOAT QBs, but he was definitely carried in 2006.

 

[NJerseypaint]

53 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

When a QB throws 3 TDs to 7 INTs and has a passer rating in the 70s, yeah, he's weighing them down.

Everything else was equal? Him throwing 3 interceptions while the team had 250 yards rushing and the defense forced 3 turnovers and kept the Chiefs to 126 yards of total offense was equal? Nope. Him throwing 1 TD and 1 INT while the team had 250 yards rushing and the defense forced 5 turnovers, including a pick-6, was equal? Nope.

There's really no need to even try to elevate Manning's 2006 playoff run. It was bad, and nothing you've said has redeemed that. He's obviously one of the GOAT QBs, but he was definitely carried in 2006.

 

In KC, the Colts had less than 200 rushing and all 3 turnovers were in the last 5 minutes of the game with the Colts already leading 23 - 8 (thanks to a Peyton Manning TD). Those turnovers hardly determined the game. Peyton didn't even throw after the Colts won those turnovers because the game was in hand and they were just running clock.

And again, the pick 6 sealed the game, but Colts were already leading. Same for the 5th int that followed. It's not like it was saving grace that bailed out Manning's poor play. Manning was solid that entire game.

[childofpudding]

8 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

In KC, the Colts had less than 200 rushing and all 3 turnovers were in the last 5 minutes of the game with the Colts already leading 23 - 8 (thanks to a Peyton Manning TD). Those turnovers hardly determined the game. Peyton didn't even throw after the Colts won those turnovers because the game was in hand and they were just running clock.

And again, the pick 6 sealed the game, but Colts were already leading. Same for the 5th int that followed. It's not like it was saving grace that bailed out Manning's poor play. Manning was solid that entire game.

You are right, 188 yards of rushing in the KC game, with the D holding KC to 126 yards of total offense. Meanwhile, Manning threw 3 INTs. Good thing Manning didnt throw later in the game. He may have thrown 4 or 5 INTs instead. Yep, that's a carry.

Five TOs in the SB is 5 TOs. Plus 247 yards of rushing on offense. Compared to 1 TD and 1 INT? Yep, that's a carry.

[childofpudding]

4 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

By this measure I wouldn't be surprised if most Super Bowl winning QBs were "carried" by their teams in the playoffs then.

This is incorrect, by the way. As I stated earlier, Manning's playoff passer rating in 2006 was 5% above what his opponents allowed that year. That is the third worst in the last 20 years, ahead only of himself in 2015 and Brady this year. The highest were Rodgers and Brees - during their SB-winning runs, they both had passer ratings that were 45% above what their opponents allowed. Both the median and average for SB winning QBs were 23% above opponents' passer rating allowed.