Nagy Open To Daniels and Whitehair Switching Positions

[dll2000]

12 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Daniels' athleticism seems like the trait that should decide this - is that more suited to the G or C position in Nagy's offense?

It's a judgment call with a lot of factors.  Center is generally all around harder than guard because you have to snap, block and make line calls.

However, center is also easier because they can get help from either guard at any time unless LINE OF SCRIMMAGE (stupid macro how do I get rid of this techies?) is overloaded.  

You want your center to be fast twitch enough to snap and block a LB shooting A gap, big and strong enough to block a giant nose and smart enough to make the calls.

While center is harder, the guard/tackle block usually has more impact on whether a run play succeeds or fails.  

Whitehair is a bit more suited to guard and Daniels a bit more to center.  Both can do either at a pro bowl level, which is sweet for Bears, but Daniels is ideally suited for center which is where he should have been playing from day one.  

I think the center and QB needing a personal relationship is something that ends up common, but not really a necessary thing to the position.  Kind or a correlation versus causation type thing.  The need to communicate and the need for that guy to have maximum effort at all times leads QBs to stay on those guys good side.

Whitehair and Daniels are rare athletes for OL position, they can match up athletically with their defensive counterparts.  In a lot of worlds those guys would have been moved to DL at a younger age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

32 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

It's a judgment call with a lot of factors.  Center is generally all around harder than guard because you have to snap, block and make line calls.

However, center is also easier because they can get help from either guard at any time unless LINE OF SCRIMMAGE (stupid macro how do I get rid of this techies?) is overloaded.  

You want your center to be fast twitch enough to snap and block a LB shooting A gap, big and strong enough to block a giant nose and smart enough to make the calls.

While center is harder, the guard/tackle block usually has more impact on whether a run play succeeds or fails.  

Whitehair is a bit more suited to guard and Daniels a bit more to center.  Both can do either at a pro bowl level, which is sweet for Bears, but Daniels is ideally suited for center which is where he should have been playing from day one.  

I think the center and QB needing a personal relationship is something that ends up common, but not really a necessary thing to the position.  Kind or a correlation versus causation type thing.  The need to communicate and the need for that guy to have maximum effort at all times leads QBs to stay on those guys good side.

Whitehair and Daniels are rare athletes for OL position, they can match up athletically with their defensive counterparts.  In a lot of worlds those guys would have been moved to DL at a younger age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you comment on my thinking about zone vs power gap with this OL?

Specifically why with OL whom were drafted into a zone scheme and fit best in one would Nagy want to change that?

What would we gain from that conversion with this group especially since all are locked in contractually for now and Whitehair soon will be as well.

[dll2000]

13 minutes ago, soulman said:

Can you comment on my thinking about zone vs power gap with this OL?

Specifically why with OL whom were drafted into a zone scheme and fit best in one would Nagy want to change that?

What would we gain from that conversion with this group especially since all are locked in contractually for now and Whitehair soon will be as well.

I don't personally believe there are gap linemen and zone linemen.  You are either a good O linemen or you aren't.  The scheme is different so there are learning curves of course, combo blocks take coordination, more you do something or the more reps you have the better you are at it.  But the blocking skills translate to either scheme.  Gap Power there is more pulling so it takes more athleticism, but zone arguably takes just as much, if not more, because you have to hesitate and still climb to a faster 2nd level player.

I don't think there is a single team in NFL that doesn't run both schemes.  It's just they will run more of this or that.  

 Remember a zone block is generally just a way to account for defensive guys going different directions, they all ideally turn into man blocks or you are letting defenders have a free hand.  Unless your QB is involved as a run threat or they are really scared of pass there will almost always be one defender free anyway.  But you don't want more than one.  

There are definite differences for runners, because some are good at making the zone read whether the read is the LB or DL and some aren't.  Some don't make the read at all and just have a natural feel for lanes and cut backs.   I think those that actually make the reads do better in long run.  A lot of RBs are kinda dumb to be honest, but they are often best overall athletes on the team.  

Gap/Power you are more just hitting a hole although there can be cut backs, but generally you are supposed to run here because that is way blocking is designed.  So it's more about pure athleticism speed and power combination.

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

54 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I don't personally believe there are gap linemen and zone linemen.  You are either a good O linemen or you aren't.  The scheme is different so there are learning curves of course, combo blocks take coordination, more you do something or the more reps you have the better you are at it.  But the blocking skills translate to either scheme.  Gap Power there is more pulling so it takes more athleticism, but zone arguably takes just as much, if not more, because you have to hesitate and still climb to a faster 2nd level player.

I don't think there is a single team in NFL that doesn't run both schemes.  It's just they will run more of this or that.  

 Remember a zone block is generally just a way to account for defensive guys going different directions, they all ideally turn into man blocks or you are letting defenders have a free hand.  Unless your QB is involved as a run threat or they are really scared of pass there will almost always be one defender free anyway.  But you don't want more than one.  

There are definite differences for runners, because some are good at making the zone read whether the read is the LB or DL and some aren't.  Some don't make the read at all and just have a natural feel for lanes and cut backs.   I think those that actually make the reads do better in long run.  A lot of RBs are kinda dumb to be honest, but they are often best overall athletes on the team.  

Gap/Power you are more just hitting a hole although there can be cut backs, but generally you are supposed to run here because that is way blocking is designed.  So it's more about pure athleticism speed and power combination.

 

 

 

 

   Thanks.  I ask mostly because we so often see scouting reports that tend to define OL as being more of a "power blocker" or more of a "zone blocker".  I pretty much understand why there might be degrees of separation and what it might be based on but not as much strategically why a HC might prefer one over another.

If I understand you though who you have as RBs might be a primary indicator in which system is favored.

[Superman(DH23)]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

It's a judgment call with a lot of factors.  Center is generally all around harder than guard because you have to snap, block and make line calls.

However, center is also easier because they can get help from either guard at any time unless LINE OF SCRIMMAGE (stupid macro how do I get rid of this techies?) is overloaded.  

You want your center to be fast twitch enough to snap and block a LB shooting A gap, big and strong enough to block a giant nose and smart enough to make the calls.

While center is harder, the guard/tackle block usually has more impact on whether a run play succeeds or fails.  

Whitehair is a bit more suited to guard and Daniels a bit more to center.  Both can do either at a pro bowl level, which is sweet for Bears, but Daniels is ideally suited for center which is where he should have been playing from day one.  

I think the center and QB needing a personal relationship is something that ends up common, but not really a necessary thing to the position.  Kind or a correlation versus causation type thing.  The need to communicate and the need for that guy to have maximum effort at all times leads QBs to stay on those guys good side.

Whitehair and Daniels are rare athletes for OL position, they can match up athletically with their defensive counterparts.  In a lot of worlds those guys would have been moved to DL at a younger age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Daniels went to the right school, bc Iowa doesnt move better athletes off the OL, they move better athletes to the OL (and TE). That's Kirk's bread and butter and we see him do it all the time.  It's probably going to be Brian's as well when he takes over in a couple years.

[soulman]

Yep.  Not many Iowa OL fail to produce in the NFL and Wisconsin also produces some good OL.

[dll2000]

14 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Daniels went to the right school, bc Iowa doesnt move better athletes off the OL, they move better athletes to the OL (and TE). That's Kirk's bread and butter and we see him do it all the time.  It's probably going to be Brian's as well when he takes over in a couple years.

@soulmanIf Iowa and WI got same level of recruits as big boys NFL would have much less of an Oline quality problem. 

[soulman]

34 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

@soulmanIf Iowa and WI got same level of recruits as big boys NFL would have much less of an Oline quality problem. 

More should consider WI.  Madison is a great town.  Went to school there long ago and lived there for a bit before moving out west.

And no one coaches college OL any better than Ferentz except the guy we got, HH.  I'm never unhappy if we can draft an Iowa lineman.

[dll2000]

Daniels has best fundamentals on Bears and he is 21. 

Ferentz or his Oline coach should take a bow. 

[Superman(DH23)]

2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Daniels has best fundamentals on Bears and he is 21. 

Ferentz or his Oline coach should take a bow. 

Its Ferentz and son. The Ferentz boys were all centers.  James, the youngest is a quality control coach in the NFL right now I believe.  

[abstract_thought]

On 3/28/2019 at 6:48 AM, dll2000 said:

@soulmanIf Iowa and WI got same level of recruits as big boys NFL would have much less of an Oline quality problem. 

I'd say it's more that other schools and even pro coaches need to adopt a similar approach. There are some guys who have good athleticism for their size but who will never make it as an TE , DL, or EDGE. Those guys are typically well-suited to positions like OL where their athleticism plays up.

[soulman]

14 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

I'd say it's more that other schools and even pro coaches need to adopt a similar approach. There are some guys who have good athleticism for their size but who will never make it as an TE , DL, or EDGE. Those guys are typically well-suited to positions like OL where their athleticism plays up.

Kirk Ferentz is especially good at finding those types and making OL out of them.  James Daniels is a good example and way back when we drafted Mark Bortz who was a DT at Iowa and turned him into a Pro Bowl OG and we had Jay Hilgenberg as well.  Iowa produces some very good NFL OCs too.

[Superman(DH23)]

23 hours ago, soulman said:

Kirk Ferentz is especially good at finding those types and making OL out of them.  James Daniels is a good example and way back when we drafted Mark Bortz who was a DT at Iowa and turned him into a Pro Bowl OG and we had Jay Hilgenberg as well.  Iowa produces some very good NFL OCs too.

Really, with Kirk there, there arent bad Iowa OL.  The best example of a bust is of course Robert Gallery, bit people forget that he became a probowl OG and played for 10 years.  Chances are if you draft an Iowa OL they are going to be at the very least serviceable bc they will be as technically sound as they come.

[dll2000]

15 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Really, with Kirk there, there arent bad Iowa OL.  The best example of a bust is of course Robert Gallery, bit people forget that he became a probowl OG and played for 10 years.  Chances are if you draft an Iowa OL they are going to be at the very least serviceable bc they will be as technically sound as they come.

Watching Daniels technique is like O line porn. 

Mark Schlereth put out some videos years ago that I thought were good.  Useful if you ever get into coaching or if you are just a football junkie which I suspect many here are.

 They will show you (meaning whoever is reading this not Superman) what O line fundamentals are supposed to look like so you can tell good from bad. 

 

[WindyCity]

Having a dominant center does more for your OL then having a dominant OG.

We know Whitehair is very good at C, but he is not dominant. If Daniels can be dominant [top 5] then you have to move him.