Chiefs WR Tyreek Hill out "a few weeks"

[Buckweath]

5 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

Eh.

This Patriots offense could be 07 like if Gordon and Brown play the full season.

What?

The only offense that could rival that Pats offense is the Chiefs' with Hill.

The Pats last year had pretty much all those same players plus Gronk but less Brown and they were not even a bit close to the Chiefs offense.

Now a 32 year old admittedly still great WR is going to make them score 10 more points per game? 

Yeah, no.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Buckweath

[Bolts223]

2 hours ago, Buckweath said:

What?

The only offense that could rival that Pats offense is the Chiefs' with Hill.

The Pats last year had pretty much all those same players plus Gronk but less Brown and they were not even a bit close to the Chiefs offense.

Now a 32 year old admittedly still great WR is going to make them score 10 more points per game? 

Yeah, no.

Patriots are better or equal everywhere on offense but TE.

Brady >= Mahomes

Michel/White > Williams/McCoy

Pats O-line > Chiefs O-line

Brown/Gordon/Edelman > Hill/Watkins/Hardman

Kelce > Watson

Gronk was washed up and a shell of himself last year. Gordon played 7 games and didn't play at all in the postseason. Last years' Patriots team was the weakest we had seen in years. (And they still won the SB)

We've seen what a Patriots offense can do when you have weapons comparable to this one.

2006 Patriots scored 24 points a game with Gafney/Caldwell/Brown as it's WR.

2007 Patriots scored 36 points a game with Moss/Welker/Stallworth at it's WR. Everything else on offense generally remained the same.

And I do think this is the most talent the Patriots have had on offense since 2007.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Bolts223

[sammymvpknight]

I think they’re being optimistic. This is a pretty significant injury. For the clavicle to be pushed posteriorly to necessitate admission...he has pretty significant ligament damage. 

Hills SC sprain commentary

[Dome]

40 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

I think they’re being optimistic. This is a pretty significant injury. For the clavicle to be pushed posteriorly to necessitate admission...he has pretty significant ligament damage. 

Hills SC sprain commentary

You sound like you know what you're talking about.

Do you?

[sammymvpknight]

12 minutes ago, Dome said:

You sound like you know what you're talking about.

Do you?

The guy in the video does.  close friend and great guy

[Jakuvious]

58 minutes ago, Bolts223 said:

Patriots are better or equal everywhere on offense but TE.

Brady >= Mahomes

Michel/White > Williams/McCoy

Pats O-line > Chiefs O-line

Brown/Gordon/Edelman > Hill/Watkins/Hardman

Kelce > Watson

Gronk was washed up and a shell of himself last year. Gordon played 7 games and didn't play at all in the postseason. Last years' Patriots team was the weakest we had seen in years. (And they still won the SB)

We've seen what a Patriots offense can do when you have weapons comparable to this one.

2006 Patriots scored 24 points a game with Gafney/Caldwell/Brown as it's WR.

2007 Patriots scored 36 points a game with Moss/Welker/Stallworth at it's WR. Everything else on offense generally remained the same.

And I do think this is the most talent the Patriots have had on offense since 2007.

Most of your ratings are, at minimum, up for debate. I would take our RB corp and WR corp over the Pats equivalents. They're at least close, if nothing else. But then I also never like the separation of TE and WR for this kind of debate. Edelman is clearly a better threat from the slot than Hardman or Robinson, but they don't play the slot for us, half the time it's Kelce.

I also think that while the Pats definitely win the coaching battle for the overall team, Reid is a better offensive mind than what the Pats have calling plays. Like, if we're talking the type of coaching more likely to result in records and numbers and such, that's easily in KC's favor IMO.

[Dome]

6 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

The guy in the video does.  close friend and great guy

Embed it then

 

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, sammymvpknight said:

I think they’re being optimistic. This is a pretty significant injury. For the clavicle to be pushed posteriorly to necessitate admission...he has pretty significant ligament damage. 

Hills SC sprain commentary

....you watched the whole video, right? Because the video you yourself posted said the estimate would be a few weeks up to 6 weeks, just depending on pain. Which is pretty much what the Chiefs are saying. It's only really serious if there's damage to the heart or airway or blood vessels during the dislocation or during the repair, but the tweet from the Chiefs training staff already said there were no complications. It's just the dislocation. The injury is only particularly scary due to location. They would've taken him to a hospital regardless because of that. It's not a dislocation a stadium training staff can handle regardless of severity.

Timestamp:

https://youtu.be/3UEkqhADCmU?t=285

[Bolts223]

27 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Most of your ratings are, at minimum, up for debate. I would take our RB corp and WR corp over the Pats equivalents. They're at least close, if nothing else. But then I also never like the separation of TE and WR for this kind of debate. Edelman is clearly a better threat from the slot than Hardman or Robinson, but they don't play the slot for us, half the time it's Kelce.

I also think that while the Pats definitely win the coaching battle for the overall team, Reid is a better offensive mind than what the Pats have calling plays. Like, if we're talking the type of coaching more likely to result in records and numbers and such, that's easily in KC's favor IMO.

I mean it's not like the Patriots haven't had historic offenses before either. The 2007, 2010 2011 & 2012 offenses are comparable to what the Chiefs offense was last year.

The Patriots have the best coaching staff in the league. McDaniels is a fantastic offensive coordinator and they have by far the best O-line coach in the league in Scarnecchia. 

While Mahomes obviously is incredible for his physical talents, he does not have Brady's brain when it comes to what Brady is able to do with that offense.

And I really don't see how you can say a washed up Lesean McCoy & Damien Williams is better than one of the better young RB's in the league in Michel and one of the better pass catching backs in White.

As far as WR goes:

Brown > Hill

Gordon > Watkins

Edelman > Hardman (Unless he really breaks out in a big way in his rookie year)

Kelce is obviously a major difference from Watson, but I don't think it's really enough to say the Chiefs offense is better when the Patriots are better everywhere else. Quite significantly so at O-line.

 

And yes, I do understand there is a lot of risk with the Patriots WR's. Brown is a nutcase and Gordon is a gigantic risk to get suspended for substance abuse. But you can really say the same thing about the Chiefs WR's as well - Watkins is incredibly injury prone and Hill could do something stupid again at any time.

 

I think that the Chiefs offense will score more points but only because they have to. The Patriots have a top 10ish defense that will do a pretty good job at holding opponents to lower point totals and allowing the offense to basically run the ball, dominate TOP and grind out the clock towards end of games. The Chiefs are more likely to be in shootouts because of the secondary they have.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Bolts223

[Jakuvious]

13 minutes ago, Bolts223 said:

I mean it's not like the Patriots haven't had historic offenses before either. The 2007, 2010 2011 & 2012 offenses are comparable to what the Chiefs offense was last year.

The Patriots have the best coaching staff in the league. McDaniels is a fantastic offensive coordinator and they have by far the best O-line coach in the league in Scarnecchia. 

While Mahomes obviously is incredible for his physical talents, he does not have Brady's brain when it comes to what Brady is able to do with that offense.

And I really don't see how you can say a washed up Lesean McCoy & Damien Williams is better than one of the better young RB's in the league in Michel and one of the better pass catching backs in White.

As far as WR goes:

Brown > Hill

Gordon > Watkins

Edelman > Hardman (Unless he really breaks out in a big way in his rookie year)

Kelce is obviously a major difference from Watson, but I don't think it's really enough to say the Chiefs offense is better when the Patriots are better everywhere else. Quite significantly so at O-line.

 

And yes, I do understand there is a lot of risk with the Patriots WR's. Brown is a nutcase and Gordon is a gigantic risk to get suspended for substance abuse. But you can really say the same thing about the Chiefs WR's as well - Watkins is incredibly injury prone and Hill could do something stupid again at any time.

 

I think that the Chiefs offense will score more points but only because they have to. The Patriots have a top 10ish defense that will do a pretty good job at holding opponents to lower point totals and allowing the offense to basically run the ball, dominate TOP and grind out the clock towards end of games. The Chiefs are more likely to be in shootouts because of the secondary they have.

McCoy did not look washed up for us yesterday. Damien Williams, admittedly in a small sample size, was more productive for us last year than Michel was for the Pats. Honestly, I don't get the hype for Michel. He looks like a perfectly average RB, with little versatility, but maybe I'm missing something. White is an infuriating player to play against, but that's more due to coaching and Brady than anything special about White, IMO. I don't see either of the Pats backs as special. Ours aren't either, but ours are more well-rounded, IMO. White is a pass catcher, Michel a runner, ours are both.

I also think Josh Gordon is over-estimated still based on what he did in 2013. Not anything he has done recently. Watkins performance yesterday was better than anything Gordon has done in 5 years.

You're also kidding yourself if you think the Pats have had 4 different offense's comparable to the Chiefs last year. The 2011 Pats didn't even lead the league in scoring. Keep in mind some of those Pats teams were league best in defensive touchdowns. Don't just look at them scoring 500+ points and think they were all-time great offenses. The 2010 Pats scored 56 offensive touchdowns. 10 less than KC last year. Like 1000 less yards.

[Bolts223]

14 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

McCoy did not look washed up for us yesterday. Damien Williams, admittedly in a small sample size, was more productive for us last year than Michel was for the Pats. Honestly, I don't get the hype for Michel. He looks like a perfectly average RB, with little versatility, but maybe I'm missing something. White is an infuriating player to play against, but that's more due to coaching and Brady than anything special about White, IMO. I don't see either of the Pats backs as special. Ours aren't either, but ours are more well-rounded, IMO. White is a pass catcher, Michel a runner, ours are both.

I also think Josh Gordon is over-estimated still based on what he did in 2013. Not anything he has done recently. Watkins performance yesterday was better than anything Gordon has done in 5 years.

You're also kidding yourself if you think the Pats have had 4 different offense's comparable to the Chiefs last year. The 2011 Pats didn't even lead the league in scoring. Keep in mind some of those Pats teams were league best in defensive touchdowns. Don't just look at them scoring 500+ points and think they were all-time great offenses. The 2010 Pats scored 56 offensive touchdowns. 10 less than KC last year. Like 1000 less yards.

Last year saw more rule changes that favor the offense and thus offenses began to score even more points on average, so keep that in mind.

All those Patriots teams had better defenses than the Chiefs did last year. (Well maybe not 2011) The Chiefs had to score that many points in a lot of those games to flat out win. The Patriots offense is very methodical and efficient, not explosive like the Chiefs is. That doesn't mean it's worse, it just means that their drives take up more clock. (Hence why in 2018 the Patriots were 2nd in average TOP and the Chiefs were 26th)

I know DVOA is not the end all, but here are some comparisons of the Chiefs offensive DVOA last year to the Pats offenses I just mentioned.

2018 Chiefs offensive DVOA: Chiefs (+34.2%)

2007 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+43.5%)

2010 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+42.2%)

2011 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+31.9%)

2012 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+30.8%)

 

In the case of 2007 & 2010: It was significantly higher. In the case of 2011 & 2012, it was pretty close but a bit lower.

 

 

[Soko]

 

Quote

I also think Josh Gordon is over-estimated still based on what he did in 2013. Not anything he has done recently. Watkins performance yesterday was better than anything Gordon has done in 5 years.

I mean, that’s sort of an ironic comment to make if you’re going to praise Watkins. When was the last time Watkins put together a good season? Easy to prop a guy after a big game like Watkins had yesterday, but that is a career-level anomaly thus far. Watkins hasn’t been anything special for the vast majority of his career, so it’s interesting to say Gordon is getting overrated over his past when Watkins hasn’t done much recently either - Sunday not withstanding. 

Watkins healthy and Gordon clean, paid the same: you’d take Watkins?

 

[Jakuvious]

7 minutes ago, Bolts223 said:

Last year saw more rule changes that favor the offense and thus offenses began to score even more points on average, so keep that in mind.

All those Patriots teams had better defenses than the Chiefs did last year. (Well maybe not 2011) The Chiefs had to score that many points in a lot of those games to flat out win. The Patriots offense is very methodical and efficient, not explosive like the Chiefs is. That doesn't mean it's worse, it just means that their drives take up more clock. (Hence why in 2018 the Patriots were 2nd in average TOP and the Chiefs were 26th)

I know DVOA is not the end all, but here are some comparisons of the Chiefs offensive DVOA last year to the Pats offenses I just mentioned.

2018 Chiefs offensive DVOA: Chiefs (+34.2%)

2007 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+43.5%)

2010 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+42.2%)

2011 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+31.9%)

2012 Patriots offensive DVOA: Patriots (+30.8%)

 

In the case of 2007 & 2010: It was significantly higher. In the case of 2011 & 2012, it was pretty close but a bit lower.

 

 

So...like I said, the Pats did not have 4 offenses on par with what the Chiefs did last year.

[Bolts223]

Just now, Jakuvious said:

So...like I said, the Pats did not have 4 offenses on par with what the Chiefs did last year.

I would say that 2007 & 2010 were better and that 2011 & 2012 were roughly in the same ballpark.

Point being: You said that the Patriots coaching staff wasn't one that could produce an historic offense like the 2018 Chiefs. I just gave you examples of when the Patriots offenses were around as good if not better. 

I think this offense is more talented than all of those offenses except for maybe 2007.

[Jakuvious]

8 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I mean, that’s sort of an ironic comment to make if you’re going to praise Watkins. When was the last time Watkins put together a good season? Easy to prop a guy after a big game like Watkins had yesterday, but that is a career-level anomaly thus far. Watkins hasn’t been anything special for the vast majority of his career, so it’s interesting to say Gordon is getting overrated over his past when Watkins hasn’t done much recently either - Sunday not withstanding. 

Watkins healthy and Gordon clean, paid the same: you’d take Watkins?

Yes. I think they're close, though. Gordon's the better deep threat, Watkins is the better YAC guy. WOuldn't really argue it either way though. Like I said, I just think in the overall discussions of the Pats offense, he's getting a lot of credit for 2013 when he hasn't been that in some time.