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bucsfan333

"Forget the draft, go win games"

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1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)I wasn’t talking about just the NFC I meant nfl as a whole. For example

Last year a 9-7 Eagles team made the playoffs in the NFC

The previous season 2 9 win teams(Bills/Titans) made the playoffs in the AFC

In 2016 a 9 Win Lions team made the playoffs in the NFC

In 2015  9 win Redskins And Texans team made the playoffs.

So it happens fairly regularly. But let’s get to that point, they can win 9 games with Winston but not 10? And it’s not like it’s some loaded team. Evans and Godwin are great. The Oline is average at BEST, the backs are bottom 3 in the league. The secondary while improved is still in the bottom 1/3 of the league. They finally got a real kicker for the first time in his career.

2.)Wouldn’t it be better to judge the line on how they perform as a whole instead of individual members? 

as a whole doesnt mean much to me because theres only one side of the conference that we should pay close attention to regarding trends, analytics etc...

 

No they cant get to 10 wins, not at the rate Winston turns the ball over. We could have ten wins if he played differently in 3-4 games this year but handed picks out like it was Halloween. Our turnover differential is bottom 5. If your not going create many turnovers then you need to at least not give them away. We are a losing 6-7 team because of that. You allude to our 2016 team that was +2 middle of the pack. Which means our defense was taking the ball away creating more possessions for our offense thus better chance to win.

 

2) To each its own. I think you look @ both aspects. I say that because its harder to pass block when your down 17 and teams can T off on your QB every play. OL has been put at a disadvantage and they also have been downright bad. As a whole Cappa misses time this year, Dotson missed a couple weeks. So you really gotta factor in the backups.

Edited by indifference

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11 hours ago, indifference said:

as a whole doesnt mean much to me because theres only one side of the conference that we should pay close attention to regarding trends, analytics etc...

 

No they cant get to 10 wins, not at the rate Winston turns the ball over. We could have ten wins if he played differently in 3-4 games this year but handed picks out like it was Halloween. Our turnover differential is bottom 5. If your not going create many turnovers then you need to at least not give them away. We are a losing 6-7 team because of that. You allude to our 2016 team that was +2 middle of the pack. Which means our defense was taking the ball away creating more possessions for our offense thus better chance to win.

 

2) To each its own. I think you look @ both aspects. I say that because its harder to pass block when your down 17 and teams can T off on your QB every play. OL has been put at a disadvantage and they also have been downright bad. As a whole Cappa misses time this year, Dotson missed a couple weeks. So you really gotta factor in the backups.

1.Ok so 3 of the last 4 years a sub 10 win team has made the playoffs in the nfc. Seems relevant. Again, they can get 9 wins at the rate Winston turns the ball over, but not 10? That makes zero sense. To use Bruce Arians as a direct example, Carson Palmer in his first season with Arians  had 24 interceptions in 2013 but the Cards went 10-6.

2.)You could’ve had ten wins if the defense wasn’t horrible against the Giants and Seahawks. Heck even with the bad defense he led them down the field against the NYG, all the kicker had to do was make a chip shot field goal.

 

3.)How often are the Bucs down 17 though?One of the reasons it’s hadd for them to passblock is that they run arguably the most aggressive downfield passing offense in football. They have to hold up waiting for these long developing routes 

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1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

1.Ok so 3 of the last 4 years a sub 10 win team has made the playoffs in the nfc. Seems relevant. Again, they can get 9 wins at the rate Winston turns the ball over, but not 10? That makes zero sense. To use Bruce Arians as a direct example, Carson Palmer in his first season with Arians  had 24 interceptions in 2013 but the Cards went 10-6.

2.)You could’ve had ten wins if the defense wasn’t horrible against the Giants and Seahawks. Heck even with the bad defense he led them down the field against the NYG, all the kicker had to do was make a chip shot field goal.

 

3.)How often are the Bucs down 17 though?One of the reasons it’s hadd for them to passblock is that they run arguably the most aggressive downfield passing offense in football. They have to hold up waiting for these long developing routes 

1) All im saying is a 9-7 record is not a lock for playoffs. That AZ team also wasnt bottom 5 in turnover differential either so to compare that team to this one is laughable. Back to 9-7 though, more than likely going to need to win tiebreakers to get in. So yeah A 9-7 team got in that doesnt mean if TB went 9-7 that same year, we’d be the team to get in..Got it? 9-7 aint a lock, you will need to own a tie breakers. So just looking at the calendar and saying oh look! A 9-7 team got in, we could’v got in too is simply dense thinking. Again, a 9-7 record is not a lock for a playoff birth regardless it a team did it any given year.

2) We could’ve had ten wins if Jameis did throw pick sixes vs Niners, Giants, a 5 turnover game vs the Titans. Cant blame the defense for everything when Jameis also help giving teams points in our loses. If he doesnt throw a pick 6 we against the giants were at 7-6. It goes both ways

3) The passing scheme itself does require our OL to block longer than most. The Bucs were playing catch up in a lot of games this year though. Mostly due to turnovers from #3 that led to the opposing team fielding great field position. 

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2 hours ago, indifference said:

1) All im saying is a 9-7 record is not a lock for playoffs. That AZ team also wasnt bottom 5 in turnover differential either so to compare that team to this one is laughable. Back to 9-7 though, more than likely going to need to win tiebreakers to get in. So yeah A 9-7 team got in that doesnt mean if TB went 9-7 that same year, we’d be the team to get in..Got it? 9-7 aint a lock, you will need to own a tie breakers. So just looking at the calendar and saying oh look! A 9-7 team got in, we could’v got in too is simply dense thinking. Again, a 9-7 record is not a lock for a playoff birth regardless it a team did it any given year.

2) We could’ve had ten wins if Jameis did throw pick sixes vs Niners, Giants, a 5 turnover game vs the Titans. Cant blame the defense for everything when Jameis also help giving teams points in our loses. If he doesnt throw a pick 6 we against the giants were at 7-6. It goes both ways

3) The passing scheme itself does require our OL to block longer than most. The Bucs were playing catch up in a lot of games this year though. Mostly due to turnovers from #3 that led to the opposing team fielding great field position. 

1.)A 9 win team makes the playoffs every year, It’s not a lock in every division or  but it happens every year basically. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing now. But again, you can win 9 games with Winston but ten is impossible? That makes no sense. 

2.)The 2013 Cardinals were 26th in turnovers and won 10 games. How did that happen? I was told you can’t win with a Qb who turns it over, Palmer had 24 interceptions that season.

3.)For for every game Winston played poorly I can cite a game where the defense was awful. Look at the first saints game, Teddy looked like Dan Marino. Absolutely embarrassed The Bucs secondary. He had zero interceptions in that game. Jameis didn’t throw a pick 6 against the giants BTW. 

 

4.)Who runs a more aggressive downfield offense than the Bucs? With the exception of maybe the falcons(with DK) or the Lions? It absolutely requires an offensive line to hold longer. It’s not a quick strike yet the ball out in 2 seconds to the Backs/slot guys offense. But again, wouldn’t it be fair to compare how a line does as a whole compared to individual players? Ali market being great in pass pro doesn’t make the Bucs offensive line good.

 

5.) Bucs are 6-7 and have a point differential of -6.Theyve pretty much have been in every game with the exception of like 1. Not a lot of “catching up”

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15 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)A 9 win team makes the playoffs every year, It’s not a lock in every division or  but it happens every year basically. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing now. But again, you can win 9 games with Winston but ten is impossible? That makes no sense. 

2.)The 2013 Cardinals were 26th in turnovers and won 10 games. How did that happen? I was told you can’t win with a Qb who turns it over, Palmer had 24 interceptions that season.

3.)For for every game Winston played poorly I can cite a game where the defense was awful. Look at the first saints game, Teddy looked like Dan Marino. Absolutely embarrassed The Bucs secondary. He had zero interceptions in that game. Jameis didn’t throw a pick 6 against the giants BTW. 

 

4.)Who runs a more aggressive downfield offense than the Bucs? With the exception of maybe the falcons(with DK) or the Lions? It absolutely requires an offensive line to hold longer. It’s not a quick strike yet the ball out in 2 seconds to the Backs/slot guys offense. But again, wouldn’t it be fair to compare how a line does as a whole compared to individual players? Ali market being great in pass pro doesn’t make the Bucs offensive line good.

 

5.) Bucs are 6-7 and have a point differential of -6.Theyve pretty much have been in every game with the exception of like 1. Not a lot of “catching up”

1) Im not arguing to argue. thats not what you insinuated. Just because a, single, one team made it that year does not mean the Bucs in any given 9-7 year are a lock in. We may or not me the only team with that 9-7 record. You keep saying you can win nine games with Jameis dude that was ONE out of FIVE seasons wtf. Obviously having a winning year for him was not the norm.

2) Because they werent in the bottom of turnover differential like this bucs team currently is. Thats how they win 10 games.

3) the defense has had its issues this year but Jameis doesnt help them either. You can argue Devin White FF saved Jameis butt after the turnover on our side of the field vs the Colts. And that is why I allude to turnover differential and winning.

4) Kansas City, LAC, and Rams are also vertically attack. Rams and Chiefs run lot more horizontal crossing concepts. Its fair to compare a OL as a whole but you have to figure that when backups come in and play terrible their overall ratings will go down. 

5) Bucs have played from behind more than they have played with a lead this year.

 

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10 hours ago, indifference said:

1) Im not arguing to argue. thats not what you insinuated. Just because a, single, one team made it that year does not mean the Bucs in any given 9-7 year are a lock in. We may or not me the only team with that 9-7 record. You keep saying you can win nine games with Jameis dude that was ONE out of FIVE seasons wtf. Obviously having a winning year for him was not the norm.

2) Because they werent in the bottom of turnover differential like this bucs team currently is. Thats how they win 10 games.

3) the defense has had its issues this year but Jameis doesnt help them either. You can argue Devin White FF saved Jameis butt after the turnover on our side of the field vs the Colts. And that is why I allude to turnover differential and winning.

4) Kansas City, LAC, and Rams are also vertically attack. Rams and Chiefs run lot more horizontal crossing concepts. Its fair to compare a OL as a whole but you have to figure that when backups come in and play terrible their overall ratings will go down. 

5) Bucs have played from behind more than they have played with a lead this year.

 

1.) Because You basically said it was impossible for a team to make the playoffs with Jameis Winston at QB. I showed you a team(2016 Bucs) with Jameis Winston winning 9 games(despite being flawed in every aspect of being a football team) winning a necessary amount of games that teams can usually get to a wildcard with. We’ve seen a team win 9 games with Jameis(led by a HC who will never hve that position in the league again), If the floor for the playoffs is 10 instead of 9, why couldn’t you envision them winning one more game? If the Bucs win out(which they can easily do) they are a damn chip shot field goal away from being 10-6.

 

 2.)Well the major reason they have only one 9 games ONCE is  because they have been horrible outside of WRs during his career. Offensive line running game and defense and special teams have been bottom of the league since 2015. For example FO ranked 2018 Bucs ranked dead last in defense, 31st in offensive line, and 27th in special teams. Nobody is winning with that.

3.)You’re moving the goal posts. First it was “you can’t win with a QB that turns the ball over like that”. I showed you a relevant example of a team that went 10-6 starting a QB who threw 24 interceptions, and now it’s well  team turnover differential. 

4.)Jameis absolutely helps them by putting up 30 points a night with zero run game and ****ty offensive line.

5.)There’s “vertical attacks”, and bombs away every play downfield like the Bucs do. Like even NE contrary to popular belief throws the ball downfield, but we’re not doing anything close to Tampa. Like it’s literally Air Coryell right out  of the 1970’s. 

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16 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

1.) Because You basically said it was impossible for a team to make the playoffs with Jameis Winston at QB. I showed you a team(2016 Bucs) with Jameis Winston winning 9 games(despite being flawed in every aspect of being a football team) winning a necessary amount of games that teams can usually get to a wildcard with. We’ve seen a team win 9 games with Jameis(led by a HC who will never hve that position in the league again), If the floor for the playoffs is 10 instead of 9, why couldn’t you envision them winning one more game? If the Bucs win out(which they can easily do) they are a damn chip shot field goal away from being 10-6.

 

 2.)Well the major reason they have only one 9 games ONCE is  because they have been horrible outside of WRs during his career. Offensive line running game and defense and special teams have been bottom of the league since 2015. For example FO ranked 2018 Bucs ranked dead last in defense, 31st in offensive line, and 27th in special teams. Nobody is winning with that.

3.)You’re moving the goal posts. First it was “you can’t win with a QB that turns the ball over like that”. I showed you a relevant example of a team that went 10-6 starting a QB who threw 24 interceptions, and now it’s well  team turnover differential. 

4.)Jameis absolutely helps them by putting up 30 points a night with zero run game and ****ty offensive line.

5.)There’s “vertical attacks”, and bombs away every play downfield like the Bucs do. Like even NE contrary to popular belief throws the ball downfield, but we’re not doing anything close to Tampa. Like it’s literally Air Coryell right out  of the 1970’s. 

 

1) In 2016, guess how many teams the Bucs faced that picked in the top 10 of the draft of the following year? *drums roll*

Six (hint two were in our division)

So yes, I cannot imagine the Bucs winning ten games with Jameis at QB because our fluke 1 win season when we won only 9 games and played cupcakes all season.

2) 2018 playoff QB's: Mahomes, Luck, Watson, Prescott, Foles, Tribusky, Rivers, Brady, Brees and Goff

INT rate by each QB: 2.1%, Luck 2.3%, Watson 1.8%, Prescott 1.5%, Wentz 1.7%, Tribusky 2.8%, Rivers 2.4%, Brady 1.9%, Brees (1%), and Goff 2.1%

In Jameis BEST season as a pro in 2016, guess what his INT rate was? 3.2%

2017 playoff QB's also mirror above but instead of Mahomes and Luck insert Smith/Taylor at a whooping 1%

3) I want you to realize that Carson Palmer 2013 season when he tossed 24 INT's in a season was an anomaly. And QB turnovers go hand in hand with turnover differential and becoming a playoff team. Your chances of making the post season is infinitely better when your defense is giving you the ball back. 

4) Jameis Winston has arguably the best WR duo in the NFL and an OL that is above average pass blocking wise(minus Smith) He absolutely should be producing as many points as he is now, the problem is, he puts our defense(who already isn't good as is) in horrible positions. Pick sixes and giving teams short fields after his turnovers from forcing the ball. I'm aware of his bad run game and mediocre at BEST OL, however, that does not excuse him from being a turnover machine. Matt Ryan is in the same exact situation in ATL right now in a very similar offense, do you know many INTs he has? And his offensive line is much, much worse than ours. Forget whole numbers, per pass Winston INT rate is at an absurd 4.5% to Ryan 2.5% and both players are in the damn near same situation.

 

 

Edited by indifference

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1 hour ago, indifference said:

 

1) In 2016, guess how many teams the Bucs faced that picked in the top 10 of the draft of the following year? *drums roll*

Six (hint two were in our division)

So yes, I cannot imagine the Bucs winning ten games with Jameis at QB because our fluke 1 win season when we won only 9 games and played cupcakes all season.

2) 2018 playoff QB's: Mahomes, Luck, Watson, Prescott, Foles, Tribusky, Rivers, Brady, Brees and Goff

 

 

what about Peyton Manning??   in 2015 for the Broncos he went 7-2 as starter 9 td - 17 ints 5.1 int % ??    Jameis has had lower than 3.2%  int as well...

 

Also, who do you think would be better replacing him at this time in FA??   I mean you are arguing Winston shouldn't be the QB but who out there is going to replace him and do better?   Dalton? Nick Foles? Cam Newton? Eli Manning?  Marcus Mariota?  Ryan Fitzpatrick?

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On 12/12/2019 at 4:24 PM, sryan66611 said:

what about Peyton Manning??   in 2015 for the Broncos he went 7-2 as starter 9 td - 17 ints 5.1 int % ??    Jameis has had lower than 3.2%  int as well...

 

Also, who do you think would be better replacing him at this time in FA??   I mean you are arguing Winston shouldn't be the QB but who out there is going to replace him and do better?   Dalton? Nick Foles? Cam Newton? Eli Manning?  Marcus Mariota?  Ryan Fitzpatrick?

2015 denver fielded one of the greatest defenses ever.  Manning was dreadful but they had a legendary defense to make up for that.

I think TB should draft a QB within first two rounds and tag Winston. Treat this situation like the Chiefs did before they let go Alex Smith. 

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Just now, indifference said:

I think TB should draft a QB within first two rounds and tag Winston. Treat this situation like the Chiefs did before they let go Alex Smith. 

Sign me up for this.

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1 minute ago, indifference said:

2015 denver fielded one of the greatest defenses ever.  Manning was dreadful but they had a legendary defense to make up for that.

I think TB should draft a QB within first two rounds and tag Winston. Treat this situation like the Chiefs did before they let go Alex Smith. 

I know about Denver I was just pointing out it can be done.

 

Ok I can get behind that...  I just wasn't sure the way you were talking like you wanted to cut Winston which IMO is a bad move.   I really hope they grab a QB I almost feel they have to in this draft.

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4 minutes ago, bucsfan333 said:

Sign me up for this.

 i understand the logic, but no thanks.  The odds of a QB working out after rd 1 are very slim.  Pretty sure BA will be balls to the wall for a playoff run.  He won t be thinking about the long term future, IMO.

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14 minutes ago, ravishingone said:

 i understand the logic, but no thanks.  The odds of a QB working out after rd 1 are very slim.  Pretty sure BA will be balls to the wall for a playoff run.  He won t be thinking about the long term future, IMO.

Worse case scenario, we find a handpicked replacement for Griff.

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8 minutes ago, bucsfan333 said:

Worse case scenario, we find a handpicked replacement for Griff.

KC used 2 1st rders to secure their QB of the future.  Now if the Bucs do that, I have no problem.  Going the lottery ticket route. I m waiting to day 3

Edited by ravishingone

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55 minutes ago, ravishingone said:

KC used 2 1st rders to secure their QB of the future.  Now if the Bucs do that, I have no problem.  Going the lottery ticket route. I m waiting to day 3

Waiting until day three is a waste of a pick.

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