***Spoilers*** Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

[Deadpulse]

27 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

A hard up bringing has no bearing on how one learns a trade or a skill that is unrelated to their upbringing. Just because Tarzan grew up in a jungle does not mean he could qualify for the Navy Seals. 

God these logical fallacies. She knows how to fight. It was already mentioned that she kicked some guys ***** when they tried to steal BB-8. Also, force reflexes are natural otherwise Anakin wouldnt be able to pod race. Qui-gon legit says he has jedi reflexes. So Rey can't while fighting off other scavengers just to make ends meat? come on. 

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Deadpulse said:

God these logical fallacies. She knows how to fight. It was already mentioned that she kicked some guys ***** when they tried to steal BB-8. Also, force reflexes are natural otherwise Anakin wouldnt be able to pod race. Qui-gon legit says he has jedi reflexes. So Rey can't while fighting off other scavengers just to make ends meat? come on. 

There is a huge difference between Force reflexes and training.  

I'll give you the first duel against Kylo Ren, as he was likely in emotional turmoil, took a bowcaster bolt to the stomach and was trying to disarm and capture Rey, not kill her.  However, likely a week later in The Last Jedi, she helps Kylo defeat the Praetorian Guards, breaks Anakin's lightsaber in half with a battle of Force pull and then lifts a giant pile of boulders out of the way for the Resistance to escape.  For the record, Luke couldn't life the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp and that was two years into his Jedi training.  But Rey can do a similar feat within a week and succeed?  I'm not buying it.  

And for the other poster who said it's a gender thing, it's not.  On the last page and in previous posts, I've clearly identified one other Star Wars canon or EU character who can be called a "Mary Sue."  Literally aside from Kyle Katarn and Rey, everyone has an arc to learning their Force powers and abilities that takes years or decades.  

[INbengalfan]

Without trying to enter the fray, I'd like to add my perspective/take on this whole issue.  i think that Abrams planned all along to have her end up being a descendent of Palpatine, and that her Mary Sue looking abilities were meant to subtly bear that out.  

Think back to TFA and there were countless pages dedicated to who her parents were.  The evidence was always there in the long run.  In the battle in the snow in the woods, she was barely able to hold her own against Kylo, until her fear turned to anger when Ren smashed Finn.  She drew incredible energy from that.  She used the rod on Jakku when under duress (fear) but didn't go ballistic at that point.  When she gets pi$$ed, she really gets going (dark side energy).  This isn't the only time she goes full blast like that, and all of them revolved around fighting back in anger.

 

The whole dyad thing also throws a wrench in it, in that is it possible she inherits abilities through Kylo?  Not sure on that one.

[naptownskinsfan]

Just now, INbengalfan said:

Without trying to enter the fray, I'd like to add my perspective/take on this whole issue.  i think that Abrams planned all along to have her end up being a descendent of Palpatine, and that her Mary Sue looking abilities were meant to subtly bear that out.  

Think back to TFA and there were countless pages dedicated to who her parents were.  The evidence was always there in the long run.  In the battle in the snow in the woods, she was barely able to hold her own against Kylo, until her fear turned to anger when Ren smashed Finn.  She drew incredible energy from that.  She used the rod on Jakku when under duress (fear) but didn't go ballistic at that point.  When she gets pi$$ed, she really gets going (dark side energy).  This isn't the only time she goes full blast like that, and all of them revolved around fighting back in anger.

 

The whole dyad thing also throws a wrench in it, in that is it possible she inherits abilities through Kylo?  Not sure on that one.

Great point about the potential shadowing there.  I could see that.  

The whole dyad concept is new, and hasn't been explained much.  However, from what I gather on it, her gaining knowledge on Force abilities is drawing on his knowledge, so you are correct as well.  

[Deadpulse]

3 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

The whole dyad concept is new, and hasn't been explained much.  However, from what I gather on it, her gaining knowledge on Force abilities is drawing on his knowledge, so you are correct as well.  

Would explain why she was able to mind trick after Kylo tried to force is way into her head. 

[naptownskinsfan]

1 minute ago, Deadpulse said:

Would explain why she was able to mind trick after Kylo tried to force is way into her head. 

Potentially, probably likely.  However, given that there are still "Light Side" powers such as heal, and "Dark Side" powers such as Lightning and Choke, Mind Trick should fall on the "Light Side" end, so I don't know how they explain that unless it's him doing the Dark Side equivalent which is possible and makes sense.  Even Force Lightning had a Light Side equivalent in EU. 

[Deadpulse]

8 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Potentially, probably likely.  However, given that there are still "Light Side" powers such as heal, and "Dark Side" powers such as Lightning and Choke, Mind Trick should fall on the "Light Side" end, so I don't know how they explain that unless it's him doing the Dark Side equivalent which is possible and makes sense.  Even Force Lightning had a Light Side equivalent in EU. 

Not sure if new Star Wars is so binary with that. Regardless, Ben Solo was clearly in there all along. Considering how hung up on flipping him she was throughout the trilogy it would not be surprising if she didnt brush up on Ben in that interrogation moment. 

[Calvert28]

4 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

God these logical fallacies. She knows how to fight. It was already mentioned that she kicked some guys ***** when they tried to steal BB-8. Also, force reflexes are natural otherwise Anakin wouldnt be able to pod race. Qui-gon legit says he has jedi reflexes. So Rey can't while fighting off other scavengers just to make ends meat? come on. 

You missed the point of what he said completely and me for that matter. Being a survivor does not entitle you to discover some disciplined technique developed over ages, hence his fencing comment. She could be the best staff user in the universe with Force Reflexes and still injure herself severely widely swinging around a lightsaber which takes years to master even for the supposed Gary Stu in Anakin. You cannot justify her developing so quickly had you never heard the word "dyad" used in the 3rd movie. 

[Calvert28]

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

So Anakin can learn at a rapid pace, have an affinity for machines, and a remarkable comprehension level, all as a CHILD (whihc is all completely underselling what is really going in TPM) and you dont bat an eye at it? But Rey cant bumble her way though some stuff without being labeled Over Powered? Seems fair

Bumble? At what point was she tripping over her feet? Letting the blade fall out of her hand? Or do anything that has to do with the word bumble? Not only was she NOT bumbling she was also parrying and guarding from his attacks quite nicely so you're gonna have to walk me through this scene and show me where her novice skills are in full display. Oh and her retreating is not bumbling about before you try that argument, that's tactics. I mean Finn barely held up and he was trained since he could walk to be a soldier, AND he is supposed to be Force Sensitive as well according to debate. 

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Again, every established Pilot in the Resistance balks at the idea to hit that vent. But Luke thinks its like he is shooting at varmint in an a barren canyon? he is able to fly a military vehicle with absolute precision while being fired upon by the most feared death squad, that is picking apart the rest of the squadron. But he slides through like a knife through butter, and completely gives over control to the Force to make an absolutely impossible shot, (which is a completely unestablished power for us at the time, and something I still dont think we've seen since)

Already touched on this before, and you seem to have already answered the question for yourself. An unestablished power, a scene that George Lucas used to show case the possibilities with the Force itself without even really knowing what he wanted it to be at that point in time. It was not well thought out of where it was supposed to come from, but you want to argue a story in its infancy of lore is somehow bad writing that should give a pass to the BS we've seen in these Star Wars movies that have over 30 years of lore to pull from which they barely did and actually disregarded most. 

You cannot compare the two standards of writing here. 

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

as basically his first real interaction with The Force (something he thought was a joke and made up just before this) but Rey bumbles her way though piloting the Falcon, even though shes been working on these ships all her life, and tries some Jedi stuff she has heard of as bedtime stories her entire life in her absolutely most desperate situations, and shes the overpowered one?

Bumbles? For a woman who is bumbling she looked like Poe Dameron flying that thing, stop reaching. 

What bedtime stories? Who took care of her, when was it ever explained that someone looked out for her as a parental figure? Again you're reaching because you don't have much of anything to pull from. She thought Luke was a myth but supposedly heard about the Jedi Mind Trick? From where, who, how? Nobody liked this girl on that planet, she was totally alone, with no one looking out for her. 

These comments are conflicting with what Deadpulse is saying that she had to raise herself all her life. So which is it?

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

She has NO CLUE how to actually use it. She is completely guessing. She is being tortured, is trying to escape, and gives a desperate attempt at a jedi mind trick, THAT DOESNT ORIGINALLY WORK and the Storm Trooper is disgusted with her laughable try. And then she is in absolute Shock when it finally does work, she isnt cocky about it. And the only other time in TFA is when she needs the Lightsaber, and she has already realized that she can tap into the force (the visions at Maz's showed her the possibility -> You know the title of the film, and the mind trick confirms it for her) is also in desperation. She isnt out here lifting X-wings or force choking, or stopping blaster fire. These are all relatively simple things, mostly done out of desperation in a last ditch effort. Its just like in Harry Potter when these things he wishes would happen just start to. None of it is really on purpose or focused, they are just a hope and a prayer that they could pull these things off, and they manifest themselves

Yes and she just happens to do it, always in turns out. She always seems to be able to find the right ability or approach to get herself out of any situation. I mean what do you think a Mary Sue or Marty Stu does exactly because there are a few variations on the term. 

Aside from the throne room scene she had not once been saved by a comrade in the entire trilogy. Coincidentally in that same scene she technically never lost a fight after first tapping into her force powers either. She has beaten, Ren, Luke, Finn, Snoke's Guards, acolytes, AND A FULL POWERED PALPATINE! Something that Anakin, Luke, or even Yoda couldn't do. And yet you still wanna defend this small little hill soldier?

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Its quite evident from her dolls in the AT-At and her gleefully wearing the Resistance helmet, and her child like glee when she meets Han, and he confirms to her and Finn that all these stories they have heard growing up are real, all of it. Seems like youre having issues picking up on Context Clues

Lol I don't think you are seeing the issue. 

The Empire had crushed the Jedi so completely in almost every way that many people thought they were a fairy tale. The only character in the original trilogy that knew the Jedi Mind Trick was Jabba the Hutt and that's only because he has dealt with Jedi's before.

Nothing about her upbringing would suggest she would have learned or even heard about ancient Jedi techniques especially when all the "bedtime" stories she's heard only came from a myth.

Nvm, I just looked it up myself and it was confirmed she learned it from fighting back Ren when he tried to probe her mind. 

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

I should what? Get this BS out of here. You come off as a pompous joke when you say crap like this.

Well I was trying to give you a reference to a movie that actually showed what happened when someone who was talented themselves was taken out of their element and tried to fight another fighter far more experienced on their own terms. And it turned out badly. Since that doesn't work for you maybe this will.

Talent/experience/ technique>>>>>>>>talent/inexperienced/raw

Unless you're trying to say that scene in the Throne room was somehow legit between Rey and Ren. She looked on par with him with still no training and managed to keep him at a draw with force pulling the light saber. His focus and technique should have easily overpowered her. 

Again the fact that you keep defending this crap is hilarious.

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

And its quite evident that your, and many others, thresh hold for a Mary Sue is very skewed. Just because a Lady has some power in a fantasy story, does not make her  over-powered.

Captain Marvel, especially in the MCU, is much closer to a Mary Sue than anything that Rey exhibits

Skewed?

You claim that she is not a Mary Sue because she has made some bad choices which does nothing to prove that she isn't a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is someone that can be flawless or without fault. They can perform tasks better then should be possible given their experience and or education.

I mean what task in the entire series did she actually fail at? Because no matter what, she always had another option just magically appear for her if "one door closed".

So lets break it down here.

She has beaten the most powerful characters in the series, and again arguably has not lost a single fight in any of the movies once "awakened", including to the most powerful character in the series who is able to destroy what seems to be dozens of massive ships with Force Lightening.

There is no physical skill or trade that the trilogy shows she is lacking in. Including languages.

She is arguably the best pilot in the entire series considering she did some of the best maneuvers in the trilogy while never having even flown a ship before in her own words/

Has the ability to win anyone to her side of the argument whether with words or deeds. Best examples: Luke and Ben

Instantly liked by all the major characters including Kylo Ren who was supposed to be the Main Antagonist. Only one who showed any reluctance was Luke and it was because he was afraid to train her, not through any fault of her character. 

Allows herself to be captured knowing she going to a trap, and manages to spring herself from said trap with relative ease when she decides to leave. 

And last but not least, Yoda himself claims she doesn't need anymore training and the books themselves which hold countless generations of knowledge are of no use to her cause she already possesses everything she needs, and this not even a week after of learning what the Force even is. This is the same Yoda that told Luke before he died that he still needed training after already having months of it under his belt. Yoda always being the most critical of teacher's pointing out even the slightest flaw throught the entire series.

Proof is in the pudding. 

Seriously stop reaching with her "supposed" screw ups that she usually sweeps up moments after making them. 

[Xenos]

For me personally, Rey didn't really become a Mary Sue and OP until this last movie. Everything else, especially TFA, was within "reason" in that universe. I suppose the main problem was that they didn't show the progression of time like the OT. It also probably didn't help that the power fluctuation level has been an issue since the PT.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Xenos

[Xenos]

IMO, this silly video does a good job of summing up the PT vs. this new trilogy. They both have their problems. And just because the new trilogy was awful, it does not make the PT suddenly good. The closest was probably Revenge of the Sith but you can see Lucas's weakness even in that movie. He is a great world builder but he just lacks the current writing or directing skills to make something on par with the OT again. If they do a new trilogy, they need a unified vision/plan from one person like Marvel had with the MCU. And please, just move on from the Skywalkers.

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Xenos

[seminoles1]

41 minutes ago, Xenos said:

I suppose the main problem was that they didn't show the progression of time like the OT.

What progression of time in the OT are you talking about?

[Xenos]

20 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

What progression of time in the OT are you talking about?

I definitely felt like there was a time gap between ANH and TESB as well as ROTJ. Whereas TLJ literally took place after TFA.

[D82]

6 hours ago, Xenos said:

IMO, this silly video does a good job of summing up the PT vs. this new trilogy. They both have their problems. And just because the new trilogy was awful, it does not make the PT suddenly good. The closest was probably Revenge of the Sith but you can see Lucas's weakness even in that movie. He is a great world builder but he just lacks the current writing or directing skills to make something on par with the OT again. If they do a new trilogy, they need a unified vision/plan from one person like Marvel had with the MCU. And please, just move on from the Skywalkers.

 

If they do a new trilogy, I’d love to see it be set during the KOTR era.

[naptownskinsfan]

6 hours ago, Xenos said:

IMO, this silly video does a good job of summing up the PT vs. this new trilogy. They both have their problems. And just because the new trilogy was awful, it does not make the PT suddenly good. The closest was probably Revenge of the Sith but you can see Lucas's weakness even in that movie. He is a great world builder but he just lacks the current writing or directing skills to make something on par with the OT again. If they do a new trilogy, they need a unified vision/plan from one person like Marvel had with the MCU. And please, just move on from the Skywalkers.

 

I haven't watched this video yet, but I've read a lot of the opinion pieces that the prequels are getting more love than they used to because of the popularity surrounding The Clone Wars TV show, as well as all of the memes.  

None of my thoughts and feelings on those movies have changed since they came out or are influenced by the sequel trilogy........except I can tolerate The Phantom Menace a whole lot more watching it with the Darth Jar Jar theory.