WindyCity Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 11 hours ago, soulman said: Yep, talent is important but we all know there's only so much that can be done to add anymore talent this year that might make an immediate difference. Other than RG which may well be Ifedi's turf it kinda "run what ya' brung" time. There's no clear indication now that either Leno or Massie can or will be replaced so I'm dealing with that as a reality until it changes. The majority of Nagy's coaching career he's had to deal with QBs who didn't have Mitch's mobility so I'll trust him and his staff to work it out so Foles gets the protection he needs and in reality Mitch doesn't need it any less. So you can either produce it or you scheme around it just like everyone else does. It's tough to have an All Pro defense and an All Pro OL. I don’t think they need an All Pro line, but they can’t roll out 3 guys who need help in pass protection. Nagy has rarely had a line this “Meh” Ried has always invested in the OL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, WindyCity said: I don’t think they need an All Pro line, but they can’t roll out 3 guys who need help in pass protection. Nagy has rarely had a line this “Meh” Ried has always invested in the OL. Windy who they've got is who they've got. Leno and Massie aren't goin' anywhere. Whitehair just got his extension and Daniels is on his rookie contract. We have one opening on the OL and that's it. 80% of any improvement has to come from within. That's reality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, soulman said: Windy who they've got is who they've got. Leno and Massie aren't goin' anywhere. Whitehair just got his extension and Daniels is on his rookie contract. We have one opening on the OL and that's it. 80% of any improvement has to come from within. That's reality. They can’t pay upgrades. They can draft them. If you take an OT in round 2 that takes Massie’s job at some point in 2020, then that is an upgrade. His contract keeps him safe from a big money veteran, not a cheap rookie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 35 minutes ago, WindyCity said: They can’t pay upgrades. They can draft them. If you take an OT in round 2 that takes Massie’s job at some point in 2020, then that is an upgrade. His contract keeps him safe from a big money veteran, not a cheap rookie. First you'd have to assume there even is an OT available in round two who could adapt to NFL play soon enough to do that. Top OTs rarely fall out of round one. Also all early OTAs are in doubt and possibly even training camp. Right now even the season may be in doubt despite what the NFL is saying. I'd don't see this as an opportune time for a major shakeup of the OL. JMHO You're living in a world of possibilities whereas I'm living in one of realities. It's kinda hard for me to see an existential improvements coming from mystery OL who aren't even on the roster right now. We're likely to draft and sign some UDFA some OL but we don't even know who and how much of an upgrade any of them can be in 2020 is pure speculation. I'm not goin' there right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, soulman said: First you'd have to assume there even is an OT available in round two who could adapt to NFL play soon enough to do that. Top OTs rarely fall out of round one. Also all early OTAs are in doubt and possibly even training camp. Right now even the season may be in doubt despite what the NFL is saying. I'd don't see this as an opportune time for a major shakeup of the OL. JMHO You're living in a world of possibilities whereas I'm living in one of realities. It's kinda hard for me to see an existential improvements coming from mystery OL who aren't even on the roster right now. We're likely to draft and sign some UDFA some OL but we don't even know who and how much of an upgrade any of them can be in 2020 is pure speculation. I'm not goin' there right now. I'd argue a "top OT" isn't even needed to be an improvement from Massie. He was bad last year and I'm not expecting a bounce back. He showed some anchor, I still think he'd be a better RG than RT. Bushrod was someone I thought could make that kick in and he did well enough when he made the move post-Chicago. Leno usually is good unless he's getting put up against a real power rusher, then he's skating back constantly. That's why hes not an OG option to me. Regardless the right side was bad and shouldn't be too hard to improve. Getting away from a power scheme that clearly didn't fit our OL should allow some improvement. Ifedi should at minimum be an upgrade at RG if there are no other moves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Sugashane said: I'd argue a "top OT" isn't even needed to be an improvement from Massie. He was bad last year and I'm not expecting a bounce back. He showed some anchor, I still think he'd be a better RG than RT. Bushrod was someone I thought could make that kick in and he did well enough when he made the move post-Chicago. Leno usually is good unless he's getting put up against a real power rusher, then he's skating back constantly. That's why hes not an OG option to me. Regardless the right side was bad and shouldn't be too hard to improve. Getting away from a power scheme that clearly didn't fit our OL should allow some improvement. Ifedi should at minimum be an upgrade at RG if there are no other moves. And I am expecting Massie to bounce back. Excepting last year he's improved year over year every year he's been here. The entire OL was a mess so to place more blame on Massie than anyone else isn't really fair IMHO. RG was a problem even with Long and even worse after he was lost. That had to have some impact on Massie's play as well and in the end he only played in 10 games before he was injured and lost for the rest of the season. I think by now he's earned being given the benefit of the doubt. Leno is strictly a LT in a zone blocking scheme. He's a finesse blocker not a power guy. He can't even play RT. We tried. I just posted a new thread that indicates Ifedi will be tried at RG so for now that's how we need to view him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 2 hours ago, soulman said: First you'd have to assume there even is an OT available in round two who could adapt to NFL play soon enough to do that. Top OTs rarely fall out of round one. Also all early OTAs are in doubt and possibly even training camp. Right now even the season may be in doubt despite what the NFL is saying. I'd don't see this as an opportune time for a major shakeup of the OL. JMHO You're living in a world of possibilities whereas I'm living in one of realities. It's kinda hard for me to see an existential improvements coming from mystery OL who aren't even on the roster right now. We're likely to draft and sign some UDFA some OL but we don't even know who and how much of an upgrade any of them can be in 2020 is pure speculation. I'm not goin' there right now. Options, they need serious options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 5, 2020 Author Share Posted April 5, 2020 53 minutes ago, WindyCity said: Options, they need serious options. How much do you really expect a rookie OL, even one taken in round 2, to contribute coming into a season with little to no offseason? At most these guys are getting training camp to acclimate before games that matter start. Even the plug and play OTs about to be taken in the top 10 are going to face more struggles to adjust than in any other year. More than any other season I think we are drafting for future OL replacements rather than immediate ones, even if immediate ones are what we really need. It’s just not realistic to think they’ll be ready to contribute early on because of the circumstances unique to 2020. Given as much I think the likelihood we invest highly in guys who aren’t helping in 2020 is low because of the win-or-else factors potentially at play for those making the decisions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, WindyCity said: Options, they need serious options. This is from the article on Ifedi I posted this AM. Ifedi will compete with Alex Bars, Rashaad Coward and presumably a rookie that the Bears could target in the NFL Draft later this month. So we aren't exactly without options even now. Over the last three drafts we've added two interior OL and both are now starters. My guess is we'll add another this year. So it's not as if the OL is being totally ignored it's just that OG/OCs are the 2nd round bargains not OTs. To get any top shelf rookie OT you pretty much have to be drafting in the top 20 and we didn't in 2019 nor will we in 2020. Once you get down to taking 2nd tier guys you're more likely to end up with those who aren't all that different from Leno and Massie. Personally I think we got pretty lucky with Leno who was a 7th round pick. So.....you can find OTs later in the draft but will they be any better than who you have? If not then you haven't upgraded anything. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 9 hours ago, soulman said: And I am expecting Massie to bounce back. Excepting last year he's improved year over year every year he's been here. The entire OL was a mess so to place more blame on Massie than anyone else isn't really fair IMHO. RG was a problem even with Long and even worse after he was lost. That had to have some impact on Massie's play as well and in the end he only played in 10 games before he was injured and lost for the rest of the season. I think by now he's earned being given the benefit of the doubt. Leno is strictly a LT in a zone blocking scheme. He's a finesse blocker not a power guy. He can't even play RT. We tried. I just posted a new thread that indicates Ifedi will be tried at RG so for now that's how we need to view him. IDK, the scheme change should help Massie but I don't expect much more improvement from a pretty mediocre OT who is going to be 31 by the start of the season. I just hope he isn't a liability this year. The whole OL was a mess, but that doesn't absolve him of getting whipped like a dog in 1 on 1 situations. He is a pro who has over 100 games under his belt, he should be able to maintain a level of play even if an OL coach sucked IMO. That is a point I was making. Leno lacks positional versatility and was pretty bad for about half the season to boot. 7 sacks for the 2nd straight year with a normal passing volume, and plenty of others giving up pressure and blowing assignments. IIRC he also had a TON of help too. I'm looking long-term, not just this season. Pace looks like he has full confidence that he isn't on the hot seat too. So drafting OTs that need a year to develop isn't a bad thing. You have a reserve to take over if there is an injury and then you set yourself up in 2021 for more talent. You can cut Leno and save $6.2 mil and Massie's cut saves you $6.7 mil. Add in Tru's dead weight being dropped and there's $9.2 mil being saved over this year. So 3 additions by subtractions get the Bears a net of about $22 mil, plenty to either add an elite talent, a few starters, or even a load of talented depth. That's why taking advantage of a deep class is paramount to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Sugashane said: IDK, the scheme change should help Massie but I don't expect much more improvement from a pretty mediocre OT who is going to be 31 by the start of the season. I just hope he isn't a liability this year. The whole OL was a mess, but that doesn't absolve him of getting whipped like a dog in 1 on 1 situations. He is a pro who has over 100 games under his belt, he should be able to maintain a level of play even if an OL coach sucked IMO. That is a point I was making. Leno lacks positional versatility and was pretty bad for about half the season to boot. 7 sacks for the 2nd straight year with a normal passing volume, and plenty of others giving up pressure and blowing assignments. IIRC he also had a TON of help too. I'm looking long-term, not just this season. Pace looks like he has full confidence that he isn't on the hot seat too. So drafting OTs that need a year to develop isn't a bad thing. You have a reserve to take over if there is an injury and then you set yourself up in 2021 for more talent. You can cut Leno and save $6.2 mil and Massie's cut saves you $6.7 mil. Add in Tru's dead weight being dropped and there's $9.2 mil being saved over this year. So 3 additions by subtractions get the Bears a net of about $22 mil, plenty to either add an elite talent, a few starters, or even a load of talented depth. That's why taking advantage of a deep class is paramount to me. I don't care how deep the class is few if any OTs (even 1st round picks) become immediate starters and most who do begin at RT not LT. And you can no longer just "buy" a decent OL via FA like Angelo did 15-16 years ago. No offense to you or anyone else but I'm gonna stop talking about pie in the sky "what could never be" stuff and deal with the reality of what is and will be in 2020. With the defense we have gimme decent QB play and a run game that can carry us and more than 17.5 pts per game of scoring and we're a solid playoff team and maybe more. 7-10 points more per game on average and we're a big winner. Edited April 6, 2020 by soulman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 43 minutes ago, soulman said: I don't care how deep the class is few if any OTs (even 1st round picks) become immediate starters and most who do begin at RT not LT. And you can no longer just "buy" a decent OL via FA like Angelo did 15-16 years ago. No offense to you or anyone else but I'm gonna stop talking about pie in the sky "what could never be" stuff and deal with the reality of what is and will be in 2020. With the defense we have gimme decent QB play and a run game that can carry us and more than 17.5 pts per game of scoring and we're a solid playoff team and maybe more. 7-10 points more per game on average and we're a big winner. Is it better to draft an OG at #43 or if someone like Josh Jones falls, do you draft him and kick him inside to OG this season and perhaps out to RT in 2021? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted April 6, 2020 Author Share Posted April 6, 2020 47 minutes ago, G08 said: Is it better to draft an OG at #43 or if someone like Josh Jones falls, do you draft him and kick him inside to OG this season and perhaps out to RT in 2021? I see that as a likely path for us if we take RT Isaiah Wilson who in all projections I see is available mid-2nd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 10 hours ago, soulman said: This is from the article on Ifedi I posted this AM. Ifedi will compete with Alex Bars, Rashaad Coward and presumably a rookie that the Bears could target in the NFL Draft later this month. So we aren't exactly without options even now. Over the last three drafts we've added two interior OL and both are now starters. My guess is we'll add another this year. So it's not as if the OL is being totally ignored it's just that OG/OCs are the 2nd round bargains not OTs. To get any top shelf rookie OT you pretty much have to be drafting in the top 20 and we didn't in 2019 nor will we in 2020. Once you get down to taking 2nd tier guys you're more likely to end up with those who aren't all that different from Leno and Massie. Personally I think we got pretty lucky with Leno who was a 7th round pick. So.....you can find OTs later in the draft but will they be any better than who you have? If not then you haven't upgraded anything. JMHO Good options. Not a RT bust, against a guy who was bad last year against a guy who couldn’t beat out the bad player last year. We should draft a serious option on the interior line and an OT to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted April 6, 2020 Share Posted April 6, 2020 56 minutes ago, G08 said: Is it better to draft an OG at #43 or if someone like Josh Jones falls, do you draft him and kick him inside to OG this season and perhaps out to RT in 2021? If you have a shot at a LT, Jones and Austin Jackson could make it to 43. Then I think you have to pull the trigger. The value of a good LT is worth it. Even if he doesn’t play right away. You can only get them in the draft, they don’t hit free agency. Other than that I think we focus on OG. Not offseason makes it more challenging for a guy to kick inside. Even more challenging if he is switching sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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