ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Young was pretty bad and a backup for like the first 8 years of his career and didn't even play in some other random league before he even came to the league? Manning did have a rough rookie season but in years 2 and 3 they went 13-3 and 10-6. They had a blip 6-10 season and then had 9 straight winning seasons where they made the playoffs. Brees had a 2-9 season, they drafted his replacement, and still moved on from him after 12-4 and 9-7 seasons in favors of Rivers. Again, none of that matters. They were .500% win QBs or worse. Should've been moved on from. Clearly not elite. Period. That's the fallacy of pretending win % is a be all end all. None of those guys sucked, they got stuck with some mediocre-bad teams. Like Carr has been with our pitiful weapons and Swiss cheese defense for the vast majority of his career. Edited June 13, 2021 by ronjon1990 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: Again, none of that matters. They were .500% win QBs or worse. Should've been moved on from. Clearly not elite. Period. That's the fallacy of pretending win % is a be all end all. None of those guys sucked, they got stuck with some mediocre-bad teams. Like Carr has been with our pitiful weapons and Swiss cheese defense for the vast majority of his career. Indianapolis was 13-3 in Manning's 2nd season and Manning was 3rd in the league in passing yards and TD. They then went 10-6 in his 3rd season and he led the league in passing yards and TD. Yes they had a bad year in his 4th season but then they knocked off 9 straight playoff appearances. Through Manning's first 7 seasons he had taken the Colts to the playoffs 5 times and won 2 MVP awards. The Chargers did move on from Brees and a lot of it had to do with concerns about his shoulder. Within 4 years of being in New Orleans he had led them to an NFC title game and won a Super Bowl. The Buccaneers moved on from Steve Young after 2 years and he was a back up in San Francisco for 5 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: Again, none of that matters. They were .500% win QBs or worse. Should've been moved on from. Clearly not elite. Period. Manning going 13-3 and 10-6 in years 2 and 3 while putting up elite numbers doesn't matter? When has Carr ever won games or put up elite numbers? Carr has ranked in the top 10 in passing yards like once and top 10 in TD's like twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Manning going 13-3 and 10-6 in years 2 and 3 while putting up elite numbers doesn't matter? When has Carr ever won games or put up elite numbers? Carr has ranked in the top 10 in passing yards like once and top 10 in TD's like twice. Carr didn't have Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, and peak Dominic Rhodes as weapons. Nor did he have a competent admin structure in the form of Bill Polian. Even his coaching past is far more questionable than that of Manning's with Mora and Tony D. I don't care what Manning did for the other 14 years he was in the league, IN YEAR 4, he was a middle of the road .500% QB with a pretty average TD:INT ratio. If those are all that matters, which is the argument being made against Carr and have been for the majority of his career, then Peyton Manning should have not been given the deference to be allowed to continue on as an average QB into the subsequent years in the first place. You can't be all "But the other 14 years, Manning did this or that" while using wins/losses to criticize Carr. That "other" 14 years is literally Carr's entire career done over....twice. So, again, no using hindsight. By the win-loss metric being used here, Manning should have been benched or jettisoned out after being win/loss and statistically very average, if not bad at points, 4 years in. Translation: Harping on about a QBs win-loss record is THAT PATENTLY STUPID, and if the league viewed QBs in that manner, Manning, Brees, Young, etc would've never flourished and the pinnacle of brilliance at thhe position would be Nick Foles and Jared Goff, so thank God the league knows better. Edited June 13, 2021 by ronjon1990 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 hours ago, NYRaider said: Goff has certainly regressed but people forget that the year they went 13-3 and made the Super Bowl, the offense carried the team. The defense was 20th in the league in yards and points allowed while the offense was 2nd in the league in yards and points. The only time Goff has ever even had an elite defense in his career was last season, their offense carried them. During their Super Bowl season Goff passed for 4,700 yards and 32 TD while the team averaged 33 ppg. And if you eliminate his rookie season under Fisher on a terrible team he has a 42-20 record as a starter and they've had a winning record every year. Over the last 4 seasons... Goff (42-20 record): 17,082 yards (64% comp), 102 TD, 48 INT Carr (25-38 record): 15,693 yards (67% comp), 89 TD, 40 INT You did not answer my question and that is where does Stafford fit into the equation using your metrics to determine if a Qb is good or not? Let's use Carr and Goff as barometers as you have brought them up in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: Carr didn't have Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, and peak Dominic Rhodes as weapons. Nor did he have a competent admin structure in the form of Bill Polian. Even his coaching past is far more questionable than that of Manning's with Mora and Tony D. I don't care what Manning did for the other 14 years he was in the league, IN YEAR 4, he was a middle of the road .500% QB with a pretty average TD:INT ratio. If those are all that matters, which is the argument being made against Carr and have been for the majority of his career, then Peyton Manning should have not been given the deference to be allowed to continue on as an average QB into the subsequent years in the first place. You can't be all "But the other 14 years, Manning did this or that" while using wins/losses to criticize Carr. That "other" 14 years is literally Carr's entire career done over....twice. So, again, no using hindsight. By the win-loss metric being used here, Manning should have been benched or jettisoned out after being win/loss and statistically very average, if not bad at points, 4 years in. Translation: Harping on about a QBs win-loss record is THAT PATENTLY STUPID, and if the league viewed QBs in that manner, Manning, Brees, Young, etc would've never flourished and the pinnacle of brilliance at thhe position would be Nick Foles and Jared Goff, so thank God the league knows better. I'm not sure why you keep comparing the first 4 years of their careers, Carr has had 7 seasons with the team. Manning's first 7 seasons (66-46): 29,442 yards, 216 TD, 120 INT, 2 MVP awards, 5 playoff appearances Carr's first 7 seasons (47-63): 26,896 yards, 170 TD, 71 INT, 1 playoff appearance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: You did not answer my question and that is where does Stafford fit into the equation using your metrics to determine if a Qb is good or not? Let's use Carr and Goff as barometers as you have brought them up in this post. I've never said Carr wasn't good, I think Carr is about an average starting level quarterback. Detroit is an even bigger dumpster fire then the Raiders and Stafford took them to the playoffs 3 times during his tenure there. I also think that he has the arm strength to make plays that Carr and Goff can't make. Carr has been surrounded by plenty of offensive talent at different stages of his career and has never been a prolific passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: Translation: Harping on about a QBs win-loss record is THAT PATENTLY STUPID, and if the league viewed QBs in that manner, Manning, Brees, Young, etc would've never flourished and the pinnacle of brilliance at thhe position would be Nick Foles and Jared Goff, so thank God the league knows better. Other than Derek Carr has there ever been a QB in NFL history to start for a team for 7 consecutive years and never play in a playoff game? You continuously talk about what Manning was through 4 seasons while completely ignoring that he was elite in years 2/3 and they went 23-9 over that stretch. They were bad his rookie season and his 4th season because they had one of the worst defenses in the league. But he had already shown that he could produce at an elite level and lead a team to winning seasons. We're having these discussions about Carr in year 7 going into year 8. It'd be one thing if Carr had produced at an elite level and we lost but he's never been a prolific passer and we haven't ever really won with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 People are really comparing Derek Carr to Steve Young, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I've never said Carr wasn't good, I think Carr is about an average starting level quarterback. Detroit is an even bigger dumpster fire then the Raiders and Stafford took them to the playoffs 3 times during his tenure there. I also think that he has the arm strength to make plays that Carr and Goff can't make. Carr has been surrounded by plenty of offensive talent at different stages of his career and has never been a prolific passer. "I think Carr is about an average starting level quarterback". Do you care to name the QB's you have ranked ahead of him if Carr is average. Detroit is an even bigger dumpster fire then the Raiders. Haha 100 percent your subjective opinion, which is clearly flawed. Carr has been surrounded by plenty of offensive talent at different stages of his career and has never been a prolific passer. Another one of your worthless opinion pieces. Do you care to name these offensive talents you speak of? The only elite talent Carr has had is Waller and he is a TE. His WR's have been amongst the worst in the NFL YOY and played with a D that was ranked worst D of the decade. https://raiderswire.usatoday.com/2020/06/18/espn-names-raiders-as-worst-defense-of-decade/ You still have not answered my questions as to where Stafford fits into the your QB rankings based on your metrics. Your prior posts have have been using statistics and W/L to try to prove your point, now I ask you where Stafford fits based on your metrics and you bring your opinion. Based on your metrics your saying Sean McVey is a fool for trading 2 1st round picks and a 26 year old Goff for a 33 year old Stafford. I just want to make sure I am understanding your thought process.. If I am missing something please elaborate.... Edited June 13, 2021 by Frankie2Gunz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Other than Derek Carr has there ever been a QB in NFL history to start for a team for 7 consecutive years and never play in a playoff game? You continuously talk about what Manning was through 4 seasons while completely ignoring that he was elite in years 2/3 and they went 23-9 over that stretch. They were bad his rookie season and his 4th season because they had one of the worst defenses in the league. But he had already shown that he could produce at an elite level and lead a team to winning seasons. We're having these discussions about Carr in year 7 going into year 8. It'd be one thing if Carr had produced at an elite level and we lost but he's never been a prolific passer and we haven't ever really won with him. You can't be serious with that garbage stat... The guy broke his leg a week before the 2016 playoffs. Do you even watch football? Edited June 13, 2021 by Frankie2Gunz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 18 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: You can't be serious with that garbage stat... The guy broke his leg a week before the 2016 playoffs. Do you even watch football? He likes arbitrary stats when they suit his argument. He doesn't like arbitrary stats when they don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 57 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I'm not sure why you keep comparing the first 4 years of their careers, Carr has had 7 seasons with the team. Manning's first 7 seasons (66-46): 29,442 yards, 216 TD, 120 INT, 2 MVP awards, 5 playoff appearances Carr's first 7 seasons (47-63): 26,896 yards, 170 TD, 71 INT, 1 playoff appearance Don't care. Manning shouldn't have been starting years 6 and 7. He proved he was painfully average by year 4. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 56 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I've never said Carr wasn't good, I think Carr is about an average starting level quarterback. Detroit is an even bigger dumpster fire then the Raiders and Stafford took them to the playoffs 3 times during his tenure there. I also think that he has the arm strength to make plays that Carr and Goff can't make. Carr has been surrounded by plenty of offensive talent at different stages of his career and has never been a prolific passer. L.O.L. What????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said: Don't care. Manning shouldn't have been starting years 6 and 7. He proved he was painfully average by year 4. He was 2nd in the league in yards and TD on a 13-3 team in year 2 and 1st in the league in yards and TD on a 10-6 team in year 3. How is that painfully average by year 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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