Browns General Discussion

[Thomas5737]

41 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Wasn’t that good? He threw for 320 yard a game off the couch. Watson couldn’t even get to 200. Baker threw for 100 less yards a game when he was here. He went 4-1 in the regular season. Flacco played out of his mind.

Theoretically you don't want to throw 27-30  interceptions over a season which is what he was on pace for.

Yeah, he was also on pace for like 45 TD but I'm not sure if 45 TD to 27 INT would equal a lot of wins without a very good defense.

He went 4-2 counting the postseason, Watson was 5-1. The offense wasn't the main reason we won the games we won.

[MWil23]

8 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Theoretically you don't want to throw 27-30  interceptions over a season which is what he was on pace for.

Yeah, he was also on pace for like 45 TD but I'm not sure if 45 TD to 27 INT would equal a lot of wins without a very good defense.

He went 4-2 counting the postseason, Watson was 5-1. The offense wasn't the main reason we won the games we won.

I love how Watson was given a win in that Colts game where he threw like 6 passes and sucked before exiting due to injury.

[MWil23]

Regardless, point being Flacco was playing catch with his dad as a “washed” gray haired veteran one week and then went out and was throwing for 300+ yards and 3+ TD almost every game behind a makeshift OL and no running game.

If he can figure it out with his goldfish brain past his prime, it goes to show the Baker “coaching” fan boys and the Watson “hey it’s not a good system for him and he’s rusty” crowd how wrong they are/were.

Put up or shut up time.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Regardless, point being Flacco was playing catch with his dad as a “washed” gray haired veteran one week and then went out and was throwing for 300+ yards and 3+ TD almost every game behind a makeshift OL and no running game.

*and different wide receivers as Amari and Moore were dealing with some injuries iirc

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

and the Watson “hey it’s not a good system for him

You’re losing me here, I’m not seeing how the poor system fit is disregarded because Flacco succeeded in it.

He was familiar with the system and recommended by Kubiak to Stefanski after working with him previously.  If anything Flacco shows just how much scheme fit matters for a QB (most players tbh).

If it’s not real and just an excuse it’s wild to think even the organization is going in so hard on keeping up bit by replacing their whole offensive staff immediately after the OC/HC wins his second coach of the year.

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

and he’s rusty” crowd how wrong they are/were.

rust and needing a bit of time to get back in the swing of things is still real to me.  Just because Flacco hit the ground running doesn’t mean everyone will all the time. You could argue Flacco was an exception, not the rule.

That said, rust was maybe a thing in 2022 when he’s trying to jump in midseason after a long break.  I’ll entertain no “he’s rusty” excuses for 2023 or this season personally.

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Put up or shut up time.

1000%.  
 

We have a 2 time coach of the year HC/OC, an offensive scheme and staff tailored to his strengths, arguably the best OL in the league. 3 very solid options at RB, a pro bowl TE, a true #1 receiver and 2 guys in Jeudy and Moore who are both very talented and absolutely good enough to play for just about any team.

oh yeah, and arguably the best defense in the league led by the remaining DPOY.

 

If buddy can’t succeed here, now, I’m not sure what else the organization can do to help him.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

As far as the rest of the Watson discussion, I think we all have our opinions and have made them known.  He’s here regardless for the foreseeable future so we can accept that and discuss his play or keep repeating the same conversations about his pervert behaviors indefinitely.

i don’t think it’s all that hard to differentiate the player from the person when discussing them, even if doing so as it relates to a rooting interest is more difficult.  At least for me.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

10 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Wasn’t that good? He threw for 320 yard a game off the couch. Watson couldn’t even get to 200. Baker threw for 100 less yards a game when he was here. He went 4-1 in the regular season. Flacco played out of his mind.

He played **** it, chuck it, yolo ball.  It worked against some bad defenses and our defenses covered up a lot of mistakes 

What he did was fun as hell from a fan’s perspective because it gave us life after we seemed to be flatlined with DTR/MVPJ/etc.  

The story was far better than his actual play. What he did was never sustainable how our season ended should have surprised no one. There’s a reason he got a 4 million dollar deal this off-season. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

11 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Flacco was fun but he wasn't really that good. I mean, for who he is and where he is in his career we got the best case scenario out of him. Watson needs to fare better though, 14 TD to 10 INT isn't what Watson is being paid to do. It was exactly what Flacco was paid to do. Watson needs to be 30-10, or about that ratio or better depending on how much we rely on the air game.

This, entirely.

[MWil23]

19 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

*and different wide receivers as Amari and Moore were dealing with some injuries iirc

You’re losing me here, I’m not seeing how the poor system fit is disregarded because Flacco succeeded in it.

He was familiar with the system and recommended by Kubiak to Stefanski after working with him previously.  If anything Flacco shows just how much scheme fit matters for a QB (most players tbh).

Then, to be blunt, Berry apologists can’t have it both ways. You acquire and draft to the scheme, not the inverse. Ask Reid, Shanahan, Sean Payton, and McVay…or go back to about any and every great offensive mind in the history of football. You (plural) can’t give Watson and Berry both a pass, that’s nonsense.

19 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

If it’s not real and just an excuse it’s wild to think even the organization is going in so hard on keeping up bit by replacing their whole offensive staff immediately after the OC/HC wins his second coach of the year.

rust and needing a bit of time to get back in the swing of things is still real to me.  Just because Flacco hit the ground running doesn’t mean everyone will all the time. You could argue Flacco was an exception, not the rule.

Fair, but then again, it’s reasonable to have $150 million expectations for a guy making $250 million. I’m expecting Goff/Dak/Cousins level production, not Mahomes and Allen level, which is actually pretty reasonable.

19 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

That said, rust was maybe a thing in 2022 when he’s trying to jump in midseason after a long break.  I’ll entertain no “he’s rusty” excuses for 2023 or this season personally.

2022 was what it was. 2023 was an injury thing but then again he was healthy when he single handedly cost us the Pittsburgh game.

19 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

1000%.  
 

We have a 2 time coach of the year HC/OC, an offensive scheme and staff tailored to his strengths, arguably the best OL in the league. 3 very solid options at RB, a pro bowl TE, a true #1 receiver and 2 guys in Jeudy and Moore who are both very talented and absolutely good enough to play for just about any team.

oh yeah, and arguably the best defense in the league led by the remaining DPOY.

 

If buddy can’t succeed here, now, I’m not sure what else the organization can do to help him.

We have the best OL in the league with a legitimate 2 deep across the board, one of the best schemes/coaches in the league, and a plethora of WR/TE and at least a good running game to go with an elite defense. He’s got far more to work with than Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Lamar, etc on offense. 

I am tired of the excuses for him and Berry. You don’t get a pass for swinging big and potentially missing big just because you drafted Martin Emerson and extending dudes you didn’t draft.

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I love how Watson was given a win in that Colts game where he threw like 6 passes and sucked before exiting due to injury.

Yeah, that wasn't his win but unofficially he is credited with it. My point was Flacco and Watson both won a lot when they started, whether they played good football or not.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

I am tired of the excuses for him and Berry. You don’t get a pass for swinging big and potentially missing big just because you drafted Martin Emerson and extending dudes you didn’t draft.

If you take away one crazy trade I have no issue with Berry. Not perfect but he has done well enough. Watson has been a failure more times than not wearing a Browns jersey (besides wins/losses).

[candyman93]

With how well the defense, special teams, and coaching were last year-

 

There’s a TON of QBs who could have eventually led us to the playoffs last year.

 

Our problem at QB (and offense) was the insane amount of turnovers we kept having.

 

We were basically the Iowa Hawkeyes last year.

Edited June 8 by candyman93

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Then, to be blunt, Berry apologists can’t have it both ways. You acquire and draft to the scheme, not the inverse. Ask Reid, Shanahan, Sean Payton, and McVay…or go back to about any and every great offensive mind in the history of football. You (plural) can’t give Watson and Berry both a pass, that’s nonsense.

it’s a little of column a, little of column b imo.

from Berry’s perspective I don’t see talent being the issue as much as scheme as it relates to Watson.  We’ve had enough to work with to perform better than he has his entire tenure here.

As far as scheme, I think part of the issue has been his availability.  And by part, I mean most.  If he had been able to play 11 games or whatever in 2022 I think the coaching staff has a better idea what’s rust, what’s stuff he just doesn’t do well, etc.. I personally am surprised he didn’t have more success running Stefanski’s stuff as it seems to be a pretty QB friendly system that doesn’t seem to ask a ton out of the guy playing that position.

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Fair, but then again, it’s reasonable to have $150 million expectations for a guy making $250 million. I’m expecting Goff/Dak/Cousins level production, not Mahomes and Allen level, which is actually pretty reasonable.

100% fair.  He’s underachieved by any metric.

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

2022 was what it was. 2023 was an injury thing but then again he was healthy when he single handedly cost us the Pittsburgh game.

yes, but also, every QB is gonna do that at some point every season. Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, etc all had awful games last season that resulted in losses.  It’s not a possibility, it’s an certainty for every QB every season.

The issue with Watson is we haven’t seen nearly as many positives to allow us to write off those poor games.

 

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

I am tired of the excuses for him and Berry. You don’t get a pass for swinging big and potentially missing big just because you drafted Martin Emerson and extending dudes you didn’t draft.

I still don’t get the hate for Berry. This guys sums up what he’s done with the roster pretty well imo.

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

We have the best OL in the league with a legitimate 2 deep across the board, one of the best schemes/coaches in the league, and a plethora of WR/TE and at least a good running game to go with an elite defense. He’s got far more to work with than Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Lamar, etc on offense. 
 

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

still don’t get the hate for Berry. This guys sums up what he’s done with the roster pretty well imo.

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

We have the best OL in the league with a legitimate 2 deep across the board, one of the best schemes/coaches in the league, and a plethora of WR/TE and at least a good running game to go with an elite defense. He’s got far more to work with than Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, Lamar, etc on offense. 
 

Aside from trading for Cooper and drafting DeWand Jones, what credit should he get for those pieces in place? And maybe Jeudy and Moore will prove me wrong but those still seem lacking on the draft capital (Moore) and money spent (Jeudy) for the production attained so far.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

And if I haven’t been clear before, I make zero excuses for Watson.  He’s not been good here, he’s underperformed and undelivered in general.

That said, I do think there’s the possibility that he improves moving forward and I don’t think that what we’ve seen over the last 2 seasons has been a good marriage of player and scheme.  

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just now, MWil23 said:

Aside from trading for Cooper and drafting DeWand Jones, what credit should he get for those pieces in place? And maybe Jeudy and Moore will prove me wrong but those still seem lacking on the draft capital (Moore) and money spent (Jeudy) for the production attained so far.

Delpit, Emerson and JOK were his picks and played like pro bowlers last season.  Hickman and Dewand looked fantastic in small sample sizes. Wright came on very strong at the end of last season.

Tomlinson, Hurst and Harris all played very well last season in their respective roles. Smith was ok.

He traded for a fantastic kicker, signed a very good punter.

Offensively, he brought in our starting LT, RT, and C. He’s drafted all of the depth you referenced.  He also resigned both guards, which isn’t nothing.  Some dudes perhaps let them walk. He made the correct decision to pay big money to two interior OL.  He resigned Njoku to what is looking like a bargain deal that many here criticized him for at the time.  He resigned Chubb when many thought he wouldn’t and restructured him when many thought he wouldn’t do that either. He signed the comeback player of the year last season off the street.

we’ll see what the Jeudy trade brings, same with Moore and Watson.  How those play out long term, especially Watson, will be a large part of his legacy.

Also, iirc it was Berry who pushed for Gym Shorts after working with him in Philly.  
 

Has he batter 1.000?  Absolutely not.  Show me the GM that does though.  This is far and away the best roster we’ve ever seen and it’s not even debatable.  I really just don’t get the hate 🤷‍♂️.  The Watson part I do obv.