Ben Simmons officially asks to be traded

[NYRaider]

Just now, Bullet Club said:

TS% is widely considered to be the best measure of scoring efficiency. It factors in getting to the FT line which is why guys like Harden puts up decent-ish shooting splits but has elite efficiency year in and year out.

So Luka was more efficient because he got to the FT line basically 1 more time per game but shot his FT's at a 10% worse clip then Donovan? I'd expect Luka to get to the FT line more, he's way bigger and literally has the ball in his hands 100% of the time. Donovan is a secondary ball handler and was playing with Ricky Rubio as a rookie. During Donovan's rookie season we also had 3 non-shooters in our starting lineup with Rubio, Favors, and Gobert so getting looks at the rim without help there was almost impossible. 

 

[Mox]

Just now, NYRaider said:

So Luka was more efficient because he got to the FT line basically 1 more time per game but shot his FT's at a 10% worse clip then Donovan? I'd expect Luka to get to the FT line more, he's way bigger and literally has the ball in his hands 100% of the time. Donovan is a secondary ball handler and was playing with Ricky Rubio as a rookie. During Donovan's rookie season we also had 3 non-shooters in our starting lineup with Rubio, Favors, and Gobert so getting looks at the rim without help there was almost impossible. 

 

He shot almost double the FTA/game despite playing less mpg. Yeah, that's a big deal. He took less shots and scored more points. If you want to play the supporting cast card Luka had way less help than Mitchell, and was still more efficient. It's close but as always when we compare these two Luka was better.

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

He shot almost double the FTA/game despite playing less mpg. Yeah, that's a big deal. He took less shots and scored more points. If you want to play the supporting cast card Luka had way less help than Mitchell, and was still more efficient. It's close but as always when we compare these two Luka was better.

Almost double the FTA per game? Luka averaged 6.7 FTA and Donovan average 3.8 FTA, you typically get 2 FT's when you're fouled correct? So that means he was getting to the line 1 more time then Donovan was per game. He took 0.5 less shots and averaged 0.7 more points but his FG%, 3PFG%, FT%, and EFG% were all worse. 

The Mavericks were 7th in the league in 3P FG makes during Luka's rookie season and played at a faster pace. I'd expect him to get to the line more playing as the primary ball handler with more shooting around him on a team that got up and down the court more. Hindsight is 20-20, the expectations for the Jazz coming into Donovan's rookie season weren't great. We had just lost our two best players in Gordon Hayward/George Hill, Joe Ingles was a 7 ppg scorer, and Rudy Gobert was just barely starting to establish himself as a starter. Donovan came in as a late lottery pick and was thrust into being our primary scorer when he wasn't even viewed as a scorer coming into the league. He wasn't even planning on declaring for the draft until he had a workout with Paul George and Chris Paul, they told him he was ready. 

Luka definitely has put up better volume stats, has that lead to more wins or post season success? 

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Almost double the FTA per game? Luka averaged 6.7 FTA and Donovan average 3.8 FTA, you typically get 2 FT's when you're fouled correct? So that means he was getting to the line 1 more time then Donovan was per game. He took 0.5 less shots and averaged 0.7 more points but his FG%, 3PFG%, FT%, and EFG% were all worse. 

The Mavericks were 7th in the league in 3P FG makes during Luka's rookie season and played at a faster pace. I'd expect him to get to the line more playing as the primary ball handler with more shooting around him on a team that got up and down the court more. Hindsight is 20-20, the expectations for the Jazz coming into Donovan's rookie season weren't great. We had just lost our two best players in Gordon Hayward/George Hill, Joe Ingles was a 7 ppg scorer, and Rudy Gobert was just barely starting to establish himself as a starter. Donovan came in as a late lottery pick and was thrust into being our primary scorer when he wasn't even viewed as a scorer coming into the league. He wasn't even planning on declaring for the draft until he had a workout with Paul George and Chris Paul, they told him he was ready. 

Luka definitely has put up better volume stats, has that lead to more wins or post season success? 

3.8 x 2 = 7.6

Luka shot 6.7 in less mpg. That's pretty close to double. Per 100 possessions it's 10.1/5.8, so even closer to double.

Like I said, in this case it's close, but Luka was still a better scorer (and player) at 19 than Mitchell was at 21.

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, Bullet Club said:

Like I said, in this case it's close, but Luka was still a better scorer (and player) at 19 than Mitchell was at 21.

Yet had worse efficiency numbers across the board while scoring slightly less on a significantly worse team. Brad Beal averaged 31.3 ppg on .593 TS% and Luka Doncic averaged 27.7 ppg on .587 TS% last season, is he a significantly better player/scorer then Luka? 

At the end of the day all the advanced stats and analytics are cool but what matters most is winning, particularly in the postseason. You can make a case that Luka's extreme usage actually hurt the Mavericks as he completely crapped the bed in the 4th quarter the entire series which is one of the main reasons they lost.  

[Sllim Pickens]

51 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Where have you seen that Ben Simmons doesn't want to play in Minnesota? Based on reports he would prefer to play in California but at this point is open to playing anywhere that isn't Philadelphia. D'Angelo Russell and Karl Anthony-Towns are also two of his best friends. A foursome of Simmons/Russell/KAT/Edwards has a ton of potential to be a very good team and their other key players actually fit around him perfectly. 

Ben Simmons is under contract for 4 more seasons, he has zero leverage. Harden had leverage because any team that traded for him could've potentially lost him after 2 seasons. Anthony Davis had leverage because any team that traded for him could've potentially lost him after 1 season. 

I meant not playing in Philly.  It was likely before, but he is very vocal and public about it now, which killed his value.  I think he will play in MN, and would be a good fit.  That package is trash, but might be the best they can get since they waited too long. 

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Yet had worse efficiency numbers across the board while scoring slightly less on a significantly worse team. Brad Beal averaged 31.3 ppg on .593 TS% and Luka Doncic averaged 27.7 ppg on .587 TS% last season, is he a significantly better player/scorer then Luka? 

At the end of the day all the advanced stats and analytics are cool but what matters most is winning, particularly in the postseason. You can make a case that Luka's extreme usage actually hurt the Mavericks as he completely crapped the bed in the 4th quarter the entire series which is one of the main reasons they lost.  

Still better overall efficiency with more attention on him while being two years younger. Beal is a one trick pony. He definitely had a better scoring regular season but Luka is on another planet as an overall player. Luka is better at everything else.

The winning bias stuff is more flawed nonsense that's not worth addressing. Luka has played at an elite level against elite teams in both his postseasons and outplayed a top 7 player in the NBA. Not his fault he's carrying teams like LeBron did in his first Cleveland stint.

[NYRaider]

17 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Still better overall efficiency with more attention on him while being two years younger. Beal is a one trick pony. He definitely had a better scoring regular season but Luka is on another planet as an overall player. Luka is better at everything else.

The winning bias stuff is more flawed nonsense that's not worth addressing. Luka has played at an elite level against elite teams in both his postseasons and outplayed a top 7 player in the NBA. Not his fault he's carrying teams like LeBron did in his first Cleveland stint.

All of that just to lose when the games matter while Don has elevated to prime MJ production in winning efforts. 

[NYRaider]

20 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I meant not playing in Philly.  It was likely before, but he is very vocal and public about it now, which killed his value.  I think he will play in MN, and would be a good fit.  That package is trash, but might be the best they can get since they waited too long. 

I mean as soon as Doc Rivers and Joel Embiid both publicly took shots at Simmons after their loss to Atlanta the ship had sailed for Ben ever playing again in Philadelphia. The biggest factor in all of this that I don't think Philadelphia's front office realized is that Ben is represented by Klutch Sports. They've showed time and time again that they will go to extreme measures to get their clients traded and will be very public about it so it essentially forces the organization's hands because if they don't do it they have to deal with a tremendous amount of media pressure/distraction. 

Philadelphia did wait way too long and like with the Harden situation they lost a ton of leverage. They were having conversations with Golden State right before the draft and asked for Wiggins, Wiseman, #7, #14, and two future 1sts. Now the only teams that actually want him aren't even willing to give up Tyrese Haliburton or D'Angelo Russell. 

 

[Mox]

4 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

All of that just to lose when the games matter while Don has elevated to prime MJ production in winning efforts. 

None of that is true. Luka actually compares pretty favorably to early Jordan though. Both carried mediocre teams against elite opponents and fell short due to lack of team support. No black marks like getting embarrassed by the Clippers without their best player or costing his team a series against Houston.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

I mean as soon as Doc Rivers and Joel Embiid both publicly took shots at Simmons after their loss to Atlanta the ship had sailed for Ben ever playing again in Philadelphia. The biggest factor in all of this that I don't think Philadelphia's front office realized is that Ben is represented by Klutch Sports. They've showed time and time again that they will go to extreme measures to get their clients traded and will be very public about it so it essentially forces the organization's hands because if they don't do it they have to deal with a tremendous amount of media pressure/distraction. 

Philadelphia did wait way too long and like with the Harden situation they lost a ton of leverage. They were having conversations with Golden State right before the draft and asked for Wiggins, Wiseman, #7, #14, and two future 1sts. Now the only teams that actually want him aren't even willing to give up Tyrese Haliburton or D'Angelo Russell. 

 

Yeah, I think they still had some leverage when it wasn't overly public on Ben's feelings.  He wanted a trade, but when he said he would rather sit and do nothing, the sixers lost all leverage.  They could have got a solid deal for him but the arrogance IMO made them think they can get him back, play him at the beginning of the season and then flip him once his value goes up and the last memory isnt him not taking a dunk opportunity.   But it blew up in their face and it went the opposite direction.  Their best play at this point is to play hardball back.  Say they wont trade him unless he is there and working with the team and if he choses not to, he can sit out until his contract is up.  Actually I dont know how contracts work if he doesnt play, like does it proceed like he was playing or would it just pick up whenever he reports?  I think its better to call his bluff and see if he is really willing to miss out on millions because these offers are laughable at best. 

[NYRaider]

5 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

None of that is true. Luka actually compares pretty favorably to early Jordan though. Both carried mediocre teams against elite opponents and fell short due to lack of team support. No black marks like getting embarrassed by the Clippers without their best player or costing his team a series against Houston.

Because Donovan wasn't injured in the playoffs and we weren't missing an All-Star PG or anything, only the Clippers injuries are relevant. The black mark against Houston, lol. Donovan had a great supporting cast of Ricky Rubio, Joe Ingles, and Derrick Favors, it's absolutely shameful he couldn't carry them. I mean Houston only had James Harden (league MVP)/Chris Paul (HOF PG) and great role players like PJ Tucker/Clint Capela who both played key roles on good teams that made deep playoff runs this season. The Rockets literally were on the verge of beating the Warriors that year before CP3 got hurt.

You act as though the Jazz are just super stacked with great players. We have a roster full of outcasted players like Rudy Gobert (late 1st), Joe Ingles (UDFA), Royce O'Neale (UDFA), Jordan Clarkson (2nd round pick), Bojan Bogdanovic (2nd round pick). None of those players were highly regarded before they came to Utah and as soon as Donovan Mitchell replaced Gordon Hayward as the primary option we became the best team in the league within a few years. 

Dallas made a trade for another max contract, All-Star level player in Porzingis and still hasn't been able to win in the playoffs. They also hired Nico Collins because he supposedly had the best connections in the league and could recruit star talent to Dallas. What happened? Kyle Lowry took less money to play in Miami and the Mavericks blew their load on Reggie Bullock/THJ, lol. 

[NYRaider]

13 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Their best play at this point is to play hardball back.  Say they wont trade him unless he is there and working with the team and if he choses not to, he can sit out until his contract is up.  Actually I dont know how contracts work if he doesnt play, like does it proceed like he was playing or would it just pick up whenever he reports?  I think its better to call his bluff and see if he is really willing to miss out on millions because these offers are laughable at best. 

The way his contract is structured he gets half of his $33M as soon as training camp starts so they have to pay him $17M regardless but can fine him if he doesn't show up after that. I don't think hard balling him back is going to work at this point, they tried to do that all off-season saying they expected him to play this year, Doc Rivers making a public plea on ESPN, and Joel Embiid announcing on social media that he wants Simmons back. How well has that worked? Simmons isn't reporting to camp, isn't speaking to the team, and refused to meet with other players when they asked to sit down and talk. 

Quote

“This has been an ongoing issue within Philly,” Williams said on Bart & Hahn, via Bleacher Report. “I talked to Rich Paul, and Rich Paul was the one who told me, ‘We want out. We want out. And we’ll go to whatever degree we have to go to in order to get out. We want to be anywhere but in Philadelphia.'”

 

[Mox]

4 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Because Donovan wasn't injured in the playoffs and we weren't missing an All-Star PG or anything, only the Clippers injuries are relevant. The black mark against Houston, lol. Donovan had a great supporting cast of Ricky Rubio, Joe Ingles, and Derrick Favors, it's absolutely shameful he couldn't carry them. I mean Houston only had James Harden (league MVP)/Chris Paul (HOF PG) and great role players like PJ Tucker/Clint Capela who both played key roles on good teams that made deep playoff runs this season. The Rockets literally were on the verge of beating the Warriors that year before CP3 got hurt.

You act as though the Jazz are just super stacked with great players. We have a roster full of outcasted players like Rudy Gobert (late 1st), Joe Ingles (UDFA), Royce O'Neale (UDFA), Jordan Clarkson (2nd round pick), Bojan Bogdanovic (2nd round pick). None of those players were highly regarded before they came to Utah and as soon as Donovan Mitchell replaced Gordon Hayward as the primary option we became the best team in the league within a few years. 

Dallas made a trade for another max contract, All-Star level player in Porzingis and still hasn't been able to win in the playoffs. They also hired Nico Collins because he supposedly had the best connections in the league and could recruit star talent to Dallas. What happened? Kyle Lowry took less money to play in Miami and the Mavericks blew their load on Reggie Bullock/THJ, lol. 

If he's so good he should be able to carry them against a Kawhi-less Clippers. Luka nearly did it by himself with Kawhi there. I don't expect him to carry them against the Rockets but I would expect him to not suck. He was horrible that series.

Utah without Mitchell is infinitely better than Dallas without Luka, and every metric for supporting cast quality shows it. These are his teammates in 2020-2021 alone:

Rudy Gobert-All Star, 3rd Team All NBA, All NBA D, DPOY

Mike Conley-All Star

Jordan Clarkson-6th Man

Joe Ingles-6th Man runner up

 

These are the combined accolades for Luka's teammates since he was drafted:

Tim Hardaway Jr.-5th place in 6th Man

That's it.

 

 

 

[NYRaider]

55 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

If he's so good he should be able to carry them against a Kawhi-less Clippers. Luka nearly did it by himself with Kawhi there. I don't expect him to carry them against the Rockets but I would expect him to not suck. He was horrible that series.

Utah without Mitchell is infinitely better than Dallas without Luka, and every metric for supporting cast quality shows it. These are his teammates in 2020-2021 alone:

Rudy Gobert-All Star, 3rd Team All NBA, All NBA D, DPOY

Mike Conley-All Star

Jordan Clarkson-6th Man

Joe Ingles-6th Man runner up

Luka nearly did it by himself? He was terrible in clutch situations the entire series. And did you forget that Donovan missed like the last 1/3 of the season with an ankle injury? He was hurt in the playoffs. Donovan only had 13 3P attempts 1 game the entire regular season, but playing on a bad ankle he had to adjust his game and averaged over 13 3PA per game in the Clippers series. He averaged 6.0 3PM per game at a 46% clip. Steph Curry, the greatest shooter in the history of basketball, has only averaged 6+ 3PM in 1/23 career playoff series.

You can move the goal posts now but again none of those players were super highly touted before. Conley was never an All-Star in Memphis and we acquired him for a package centered around Ricky Rubio/Grayson Allen, he only got the nod this year after injuries. Rudy Gobert was the former 27th overall pick. We acquired Clarkson by trading Dante Exum mid-season and we signed Joe Ingles as a free agent after he failed to make the Clippers preseason roster. 

What's the one consistent thing about Bogdanovic, Clarkson, Conley, Ingles, and Gobert? They've all improved a ton playing with Donovan Mitchell. We had the best record in the league last season and made a major leap before injuries hampered us in the postseason. The Mavericks made a move for a max contract player in Porzingis and he has actually gotten worse playing with Luka. Has any player improved playing with him? The stats are great but Russell Westbrook also fills up the box score, your advanced analytics don't win games in the playoffs.