Where Is The Pressure On Fields Coming From......

[JAF-N72EX]

11 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Oh I'm excited to hear how much this pisses @JAF-N72EXoff. 😄

 

I mean....where do I start, suga?

Sam Mustipher = 51.3
Larry Borom = 55.0

^^Those are serious PFF grades people.

Imagine thinking Borom has been nearly as bad in these last 2 games as Mustipher has been this entire season while playing against the likes of TJ Watt and Nick Bosa.

See...this is the **** I'm talking about. I don't care who is watching these games. Nobody in their right mind can say this with a straight face. You could have a blind man with 4 different other disabilities and a broken television and he would look at you with the same face as I am while reading this garbage.

 This is why anyone who quotes them in any fashion needs to strapped to chair for a year and forced to listen to a constant repeat of the trolo song for the entire length of the football season.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[Sugashane]

8 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

 

I mean....where do I start, suga?

Sam Mustipher = 51.3
Larry Borom = 55.0

^^Those are serious PFF grades people.

Imagine thinking Borom has been nearly as bad in these last 2 games as Mustipher has been this entire season while playing against the of likes TJ Watt and Nick Bosa.

See...this is the **** I'm talking about. I don't care who is watching these games. Nobody in their right mind can say this with a straight face. You could have a blind man with 4 different other disabilities and a broken television and he would look at you with the same face as I am while reading this garbage.

 This is why anyone who quotes them in any fashion needs to strapped to chair for a year and forced to listen to a constant repeat of the trolo song for the entire length of the football season.

 

 

Honestly I thought they scored a point per play, so I thought he had worked "up" to that in a short time. lol

That video was golden. Dude must be "Ed's" dad from the boner commercials.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

Here's a logical idea. Move Whitehair, Ifedi, and Daniels back to the positions where they had their best seasons at (C, RG and LG, respectively) and move Mustipher to RG to see what he can do next to Whitehair and Borom until Ifedi returns and go from there. IF the line gets better but they still see Mustipher as a libailty at RG then try Bars and only use Mustipher at RG in 6OL formations while Bars plays outside. If he plays better at RG than he did at C then we may have a viable backup RG for the future. If he doesn't then atleast we know what we have and can move on after the year.

It's a simple concept, IMO. I don't know why they keep on moving these guys around and expecting the same results. If they are good at something ....then keep them there. Kyle Long talked about how moving him from RG to RT made him feel uncomfortable and he fought it all the way and eventually just caved for the team but he didn't like it. There's a reason for this. Each position is different. Constantly moving guys around is not the answer to long term problems.

Edited November 13, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[Sugashane]

36 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Here's a logical idea. Move Whitehair, Ifedi, and Daniels back to the positions where they had their best seasons at (C, RG and LG, respectively) and move Mustipher to RG to see what he can do next to Whitehair and Borom until Ifedi returns and go from there. IF the line gets better but they still see Mustipher as a libailty at RG then try Bars and only use Mustipher at RG in 6OL formations while Bars plays outside. If he plays better at RG than he did at C then we may have a viable backup RG for the future. If he doesn't then atleast we know what we have and can move on after the year.

It's a simple concept, IMO. I don't know why they keep on moving these guys around and expecting the same results. If they are good at something ....then keep them there. Kyle Long talked about how moving him from RG to RT made him feel uncomfortable and he fought it all the way and eventually just caved for the team but he didn't like it. There's a reason for this. Each position is different. Constantly moving guys around is not the answer to long term problems.

He also switched there with no real reps and had to go against Peppers. Not disagreeing with you, just was a stupid manner to go about it too. 

Really I still maintain he should have been a RT from the start and Mills should have been the RG. He was raw for sure but a damn good athlete, clearly could have caught up. Mills was a limited athlete comparatively but had a pretty good anchor and was mean early on.

 

[soulman]

8 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

I would say teams like Baltimore, Dallas & Tampa would disagree...they use a lot of power blocking then bring in some outside zone as a change up...

The NFL is about going against the curve at times...teams got smaller and faster on defence to deal with passing attacks...you bring in a massive OL and hit them straight in the mouth and that is really difficult to deal with...you wear down pass rushers by doing that throughout the game and it then allows you to set up the play action when teams are forced to bring an extra safety down to the box...

For me I want to get bigger and more physical upfront...I want those 6'5"-6'6" 320lbs linemen who have tackle experience and can move but also have the power and aggressiveness on the inside.

IMHO and IMHO only your line blocking scheme should match the skill set of your backs.  I'm not infinitely familiar with other teams backs but I am with ours.  Monty and Herbert are classic "one cut" style backs with great vision and an ability to make people miss.  They tend to thrive in a zone scheme that allows them to read the blocking then quickly make a cut and hit a crease in the line.

It's not anything new.  The Broncos OL Coach Alex Gibbs is credited with developing it back in the late '90s for the type of backs the Broncos had turning guys who were late round picks like Herbert into consistent 1000 yard rushers and helping Denver win back to back Super Bowls.  Even though OL were smaller then there's no reason an athletic 320lb OG or OT can't thrive in a zone scheme.

I don't care how much weight or supposed core strength Nagy and Castillo thought they might get out of requiring their OL to add weight but it ain't working.  Mustipher added over 20lbs and he still gets tossed around like a rag doll.  Daniels did the same and also loses rather consistently when asked to power block.  Bars might be the only guy who may have benefited somewhat from it.

If that's what you want then you might as well trash the whole interior OL and replace them.  Then replace our RBs as well.  When we run zone blocking we control the ball on the ground.  When we try to run Nagy's power schemes we get stonewalled because our interior OL aren't people movers.  How many times have you watched us get stopped on 3rd and short plays when there is no crease to exploit?

IMHO we have an OL and RBs built to play zone.  Use it.

[JAF-N72EX]

6 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

He also switched there with no real reps and had to go against Peppers. Not disagreeing with you, just was a stupid manner to go about it too. 

Really I still maintain he should have been a RT from the start and Mills should have been the RG. He was raw for sure but a damn good athlete, clearly could have caught up. Mills was a limited athlete comparatively but had a pretty good anchor and was mean early on.

 

At the time, I was banging the same table simply because RT is far more important than RG. But in hindsight and after listening to him talk about how difficult it was for him to switch then I understood it better. 

But that goes back to my point about constantly switching Whitehair, Daniels, and Ifedi.

Whitehair had trouble with consistency at C and fumbling snaps in 2017 and they drafted Daniels to play C in 2018. They played Daniels at C and Whitehair at LG to start the season and it just wasn't working (Daniels struggled and Whitehair was soild) so they switched positions after 6 games, I believe, and the OL as a whole seemed to flourished for the rest of the season. Daniels was playing his best and Whitehair's fumbling at C seemed to be resolved. In 2019, Daniels and Whitehair were the best 2 players on the OL. 2020, Daniels got injured (nobody's fault there) and Ifedi stepped up big at RG and played decent as Massie's replacement at RT. And now, they moved ALL 3 of them away from the positions where they excelled at.

[soulman]

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

This is actually the most problematic part of the whole offensive line equation. 

OC is the keystone of the OL much like the QB is the keystone of the entire offense.  Our "keystone" plays OC like Mike Glennon played QB.

[AZBearsFan]

4 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

At the time, I was banging the same table simply because RT is far more important than RG. But in hindsight and after listening to him talk about how difficult it was for him to switch then I understood it better. 

But that goes back to my point about constantly switching Whitehair, Daniels, and Ifedi.

Whitehair had trouble with consistency at C and fumbling snaps in 2017 and they drafted Daniels to play C in 2018. They played Daniels at C and Whitehair at LG to start the season and it just wasn't working (Daniels struggled and Whitehair was soild) so they switched positions after 6 games, I believe, and the OL as a whole seemed to flourished for the rest of the season. Daniels was playing his best and Whitehair's fumbling at C seemed to be resolved. In 2019, Daniels and Whitehair were the best 2 players on the OL. 2020, Daniels got injured (nobody's fault there) and Ifedi stepped up big at RG and played decent as Massie's replacement at RT. And now, they moved ALL 3 of them away from the positions where they excelled at.

Yeah, this never made sense to me either. I get the idea of getting your best 5 out there when you’re not sure you have 5 who are any good (especially after Jenkins and Borom got hurt) but at the same time if you have 3 you know you can rely on at specific spots then put those guys there and figure out the other two. I just posted about switching Whitehair to C once Ifedi is healthy enough to slot back in at OG but at the same time if that’s gonna be the play then they better have Whitehair working with Fields on taking snaps from him right now too. You’d think this has happened at least to some extent since I’m pretty sure Whitehair would slide in at C should Mustipher get hurt and have to come out.

At this point we’re 3-6. This season is over except for developing toward 2022 and figuring out what we have for next year vs. what we need to replace. We have 3 guys we know are gonna be on the roster next year and projected as starters with the 2 rookie tackles and Whitehair. What should happen is put those guys where you intend to play them in 2022 now (meaning Jenkins in for Peters once he’s physically ready) and let them get better there. Will that happen with a potential lame duck staff who needs to squeeze as much 2021 success out of this thing as they can? I’m certainly skeptical. 

[JAF-N72EX]

9 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Yeah, this never made sense to me either. I get the idea of getting your best 5 out there when you’re not sure you have 5 who are any good (especially after Jenkins and Borom got hurt) but at the same time if you have 3 you know you can rely on at specific spots then put those guys there and figure out the other two.

Same. But evidently the word stability has escaped this organization in more ways than one.

Edited November 13, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[soulman]

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

At the time, I was banging the same table simply because RT is far more important than RG. But in hindsight and after listening to him talk about how difficult it was for him to switch then I understood it better. 

But that goes back to my point about constantly switching Whitehair, Daniels, and Ifedi.

Whitehair had trouble with consistency at C and fumbling snaps in 2017 and they drafted Daniels to play C in 2018. They played Daniels at C and Whitehair at LG to start the season and it just wasn't working (Daniels struggled and Whitehair was soild) so they switched positions after 6 games, I believe, and the OL as a whole seemed to flourished for the rest of the season. Daniels was playing his best and Whitehair's fumbling at C seemed to be resolved. In 2019, Daniels and Whitehair were the best 2 players on the OL. 2020, Daniels got injured (nobody's fault there) and Ifedi stepped up big at RG and played decent as Massie's replacement at RT. And now, they moved ALL 3 of them away from the positions where they excelled at.

This is what I've taken to calling Nagy's Coaching Carousel of the OL.

Initially Daniels had neither the size/strength or experience needed to play OC at an NFL level.  But he was only 20 years old and still developing physically.  According to his rookie measurables he weighed 305lbs and that may even have been gracious.  Now at age 24 he weighs 325lbs and while it's possible he may have eventually grown into the position Whitehair had the current experience and ability to take over at OC and did.

Basically Daniels at LG with Whitehair at OC worked.

We lost Daniels to that pec injury in 2020 but when he returned this year it was at RG with Whitehair moving back to LG and Mustipher at OC where he never been more than barely adequate at best.  Daniels was playing his best at LG when he got injured and then gets moved again to the RG spot this year and after just 9 games some are so set against him they don't believe we should extend him?  Gimme a break....or at least give him a break.  In fact the entire interior of the OL should catch a break from playing musical chair OGs and OC.

Whenever I've gotten lost in something my course of action has always been to go back to the point at which I wasn't lost.  The point at which it was all working as planned.  So....now that Borom can start and apparently hold his own why not return to what worked?  Next week, move Whitehair back to OC, Daniels to LG, Ifedi or Bars plays RG and Borom plays RT with Peters at LT.  By now there is no excuse for keeping Mustipher as a starter.  He added bulk and muscle in the offseason yet he still can't handle size and power.  He's a backup caliber guy and no more.

If the objective of any OL is to play your 5 best guys, and Nagy has always agreed with that, then Mustipher has to be the odd man out and it's not as if we screwed without him since Whitehair has played as many or more games at OC as he has OG.  This along with several other personnel decisions is what makes no sense.  Why are guys who have proven some ability to get more snaps sitting while guys who should be sitting are starting?  IMHO this is just one more reason why Matt Nagy should lose his job.  He has never put his teams in the best position to win.

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, soulman said:

OC is the keystone of the OL much like the QB is the keystone of the entire offense.  Our "keystone" plays OC like Mike Glennon played QB.

Battle of the feeble. Who wins in a head on bullrush

 

Mustipher or Shea McClellin

 

Somehow the sound of that impact will be described as "feminine", "cute" and "tenderly."

[Madmike90]

5 hours ago, soulman said:

IMHO and IMHO only your line blocking scheme should match the skill set of your backs.  I'm not infinitely familiar with other teams backs but I am with ours.  Monty and Herbert are classic "one cut" style backs with great vision and an ability to make people miss.  They tend to thrive in a zone scheme that allows them to read the blocking then quickly make a cut and hit a crease in the line.

It's not anything new.  The Broncos OL Coach Alex Gibbs is credited with developing it back in the late '90s for the type of backs the Broncos had turning guys who were late round picks like Herbert into consistent 1000 yard rushers and helping Denver win back to back Super Bowls.  Even though OL were smaller then there's no reason an athletic 320lb OG or OT can't thrive in a zone scheme.

I don't care how much weight or supposed core strength Nagy and Castillo thought they might get out of requiring their OL to add weight but it ain't working.  Mustipher added over 20lbs and he still gets tossed around like a rag doll.  Daniels did the same and also loses rather consistently when asked to power block.  Bars might be the only guy who may have benefited somewhat from it.

If that's what you want then you might as well trash the whole interior OL and replace them.  Then replace our RBs as well.  When we run zone blocking we control the ball on the ground.  When we try to run Nagy's power schemes we get stonewalled because our interior OL aren't people movers.  How many times have you watched us get stopped on 3rd and short plays when there is no crease to exploit?

IMHO we have an OL and RBs built to play zone.  Use it.

I think at times we all get bogged down with Power vs. Zone blocking...the truth is basically every team in the NFL do both...like I said Baltimore, Tampa, Dallas & Cleveland who are the best OL in the NFL use both schemes and do so with big physical linemen...we don't have that inside...Daniels might be listed in the 320lbs but I doubt he is that heavy and doesn't play that strong...same with Mustipher to an even worse extent...Whitehair I would suggest is actually under 300lbs...he looks tiny in his uniform...we need to get bigger and more physical and I think the picks of Jenkins & Borom show that...both are good athletes who could play in both schemes but more importantly both are physical and tough...no one runs the Gibbs zone scheme any more where all the linemen were expected to be under 300lbs...look at Kubiack in Minny...entire line are big physical guys...the game has moved on and we have to change our OL to one that can run elements of both schemes which would also really help the backs due to the fact teams don't know what's coming their way.

[soulman]

9 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Battle of the feeble. Who wins in a head on bullrush

 

Mustipher or Shea McClellin

 

Somehow the sound of that impact will be described as "feminine", "cute" and "tenderly."

Shea McClellin when we coulda and shoulda drafted Chandler Jones like Lovie pushed for.

The sum total of my facepalms is beginning to create brain damage. 

[soulman]

14 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I mean....where do I start, suga?

Sam Mustipher = 51.3
Larry Borom = 55.0

^^Those are serious PFF grades people.

I'm not fan of PFF and their voodoo ranking system either but you're comparing qualitative scoring to quantitative scoring here.

These are how PFF rated them overall.  It's their "opinion" based on some unexplained scoring system. What I posted was purely quantitative.

On what percentage of passing downs did each position yield pressure.  There's a difference.

[soulman]

14 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Here's a logical idea. Move Whitehair, Ifedi, and Daniels back to the positions where they had their best seasons at (C, RG and LG, respectively) and move Mustipher to RG to see what he can do next to Whitehair and Borom until Ifedi returns and go from there. IF the line gets better but they still see Mustipher as a libailty at RG then try Bars and only use Mustipher at RG in 6OL formations while Bars plays outside. If he plays better at RG than he did at C then we may have a viable backup RG for the future. If he doesn't then atleast we know what we have and can move on after the year.

It's a simple concept, IMO. I don't know why they keep on moving these guys around and expecting the same results. If they are good at something ....then keep them there. Kyle Long talked about how moving him from RG to RT made him feel uncomfortable and he fought it all the way and eventually just caved for the team but he didn't like it. There's a reason for this. Each position is different. Constantly moving guys around is not the answer to long term problems.

Exactly.  But now cue up the Tina Turner tune "What's Love Got To Do With It" but sub the word Logic for Love.  Now you have Nagy Logic.

As for Mustipher my guess is no matter where you put him other than on the bench he's gonna struggle with power rushers and anyone else who grades out above mediocre at DT.  Some of you guys seem to want bullies so play Bars if Ifedi can't play yet.  He's big and he has a mean streak.

Answer to bold face #2.  Repeat after me.....Nagy Logic.

If there's one thing that Matt Nagy excels at it's over thinking just about any situation that isn't working the way he drew it up.  How many times during his post game pressers has he deferred answering questions until he reviews a game tape.  In his entire history as HC not even once have I ever heard him say "it's simple, our __________ blew his block" or "we had the wrong protection called on that play".

Jeezus H Tap Dancing Christ 15 million Bears fans saw it just watching on TV and yet from the sidelines you can't tell what happened?

It's like he refused to answer a direct question until he can concoct some kind of twisted reasoning for what happened instead of just saying we screwed up there, or I screwed up there.  We're Chicagoans or former Chicagoans.  Don't try to bull**** us.  Just give us the facts even if it's well I screwed that one up myself.  Then it'll be fine.  You're right it was stupid just don't do it again.  We can also be forgiving when required.

I've had it with the whole mess.  There is literally nothing Matt Nagy could do any longer that would make me believe that he is an acceptable HC for this team any longer.  I want him as far away from Justin Fields as we can get him.  I don't care how influential he may have been in picking him because his vision for Fields will never match well with what Fields is showing he's quite capable of becoming.

Edited November 13, 2021 by soulman