BDL Discussion Thread 2022

[MWil23]

4 minutes ago, rackcs said:

I think helmet scouting in general is lazy, you have to evaluate these guys individually. Dwayne Haskins is different from Fields who is different from CJ Stroud. They all have very different games, why does it matter that they went to OSU?

The scheme for each is largely different as well. Ryan Day runs a very pro style scheme with a lot of option routes. I have some concerns about Stroud's ability to go quickly through progressions (largely because his WR are so good and he doesn't have to) and hold the ball too long, but he throws an NFL route tree and has every tool aside from being an average athlete.

I'd take an OSU WR in a heartbeat though, largely because of the scheme/route tree. Helmet scouting IMO only matters in terms of "pro scheme" translatable qualities.

[rackcs]

Just now, MWil23 said:

The scheme for each is largely different as well. Ryan Day runs a very pro style scheme with a lot of option routes. I have some concerns about Stroud's ability to go quickly through progressions (largely because his WR are so good and he doesn't have to) and hold the ball too long, but he throws an NFL route tree and has every tool aside from being an average athlete.

I'd take an OSU WR in a heartbeat though, largely because of the scheme/route tree. Helmet scouting IMO only matters in terms of "pro scheme" translatable qualities.

I agree with you in that my concern about Ohio State QBs is more with the superior talent around them than coaching. I was just about to say that Ohio State does a good job of adapting to the strengths of their QBs and nothing about their offense is gimmicky. My main concern with players on these top tier teams is always about if they're being carried by the superior talent around them.

So that's where you just watch the tape to make sure that they're making plays themselves and not just getting bailed out by having great receivers and a great OL (which is how I felt about Haskins).

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, rackcs said:

I agree with you in that my concern about Ohio State QBs is more with the superior talent around them than coaching. I was just about to say that Ohio State does a good job of adapting to the strengths of their QBs and nothing about their offense is gimmicky. My main concern with players on these top tier teams is always about if they're being carried by the superior talent around them.

So that's where you just watch the tape to make sure that they're making plays themselves and not just getting bailed out by having great receivers and a great OL (which is how I felt about Haskins).

IMO this was all my concern(s) about Alabama QBs as well. 

1. Jones and Tua had 4 1st Round quality WR to throw to (and ironically I'm not even including Hurts here)

2. They each had a 1st Round RB (Najee, even Jacobs) and another 2nd Day pick (Harris)

3. Almost all of them have ALL DAY and never get touched due to the plethora of OL talent that they've had. For example, the "Wow look how cerebral Mac Jones is getting to his 4th Progression" I never bought into because of this alone.

For Haskins, his biggest knock and most legitimate that ended up biting him was the lack of consistent downfield accuracy. For Fields, it was his propensity to hold onto the ball too long, but aside from that, I loved his accuracy, I liked his poise, and I liked how he didn't turn it over...albeit that Northwestern game did expose some flaws.

IMO I generally don't count "off the field busts" against teams/prospects at the college and university level unless it's Baylor level bad.

[MWil23]

Also, remember when nobody wanted Judon in the off-season when we tried trading him/traded him? Good times!

[VigilantZombie]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Also, remember when nobody wanted Judon in the off-season when we tried trading him/traded him? Good times!

 I think it was less about people not wanting him and a lot more about people not wanting the contract in a cap strapped year

[rackcs]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

IMO this was all my concern(s) about Alabama QBs as well. 

1. Jones and Tua had 4 1st Round quality WR to throw to (and ironically I'm not even including Hurts here)

2. They each had a 1st Round RB (Najee, even Jacobs) and another 2nd Day pick (Harris)

3. Almost all of them have ALL DAY and never get touched due to the plethora of OL talent that they've had. For example, the "Wow look how cerebral Mac Jones is getting to his 4th Progression" I never bought into because of this alone.

For Haskins, his biggest knock and most legitimate that ended up biting him was the lack of consistent downfield accuracy. For Fields, it was his propensity to hold onto the ball too long, but aside from that, I loved his accuracy, I liked his poise, and I liked how he didn't turn it over...albeit that Northwestern game did expose some flaws.

IMO I generally don't count "off the field busts" against teams/prospects at the college and university level unless it's Baylor level bad.

Yeah it definitely applies to other schools too, Bama is a great example. I think this way about a lot of Alabama defenders as well. Are you making plays/winning consistently the "right way", or is the NFL-level talent sprinkled throughout the defense making it easier on you to look good? Look at the Clemson DL from a few years back that was so hyped. Clelin Ferrell got drafted the highest but I remember thinking that he was the worst out of those 3 first round guys, although I didn't think he'd be this big of a bust either. 

[MWil23]

9 minutes ago, rackcs said:

Yeah it definitely applies to other schools too, Bama is a great example. I think this way about a lot of Alabama defenders as well. Are you making plays/winning consistently the "right way", or is the NFL-level talent sprinkled throughout the defense making it easier on you to look good? Look at the Clemson DL from a few years back that was so hyped. Clelin Ferrell got drafted the highest but I remember thinking that he was the worst out of those 3 first round guys, although I didn't think he'd be this big of a bust either. 

What's funny is that I loved Ferrell in the late 1st/early 2nd for a value pick because I loved how technically sound he seemed to be, but yeah he was my third guy as well.

It will be super interesting to see how many of the UGA dudes pan out and those who are busts for the same reasons...and then you have major talent star studded rosters where about "everyone" pans out like the '01 Hurricanes.

[Blue]

9 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

Speaking of offenses going to hell, how will yall account for no Juszczyk for the next two weeks?  

We didn’t plan to use him at all this week, only on the lineup as an emergency option.

36 minutes ago, rackcs said:

I think helmet scouting in general is lazy, you have to evaluate these guys individually. Dwayne Haskins is different from Fields who is different from CJ Stroud. They all have very different games, why does it matter that they went to OSU?

Because the coaching staff and scheme doesn’t prepare them for the NFL at all.

[VigilantZombie]

3 minutes ago, Blue said:

We didn’t plan to use him at all this week, only on the lineup as an emergency option.

Because the coaching staff and scheme doesn’t prepare them for the NFL at all.

That is the common denominator that I see with schools that have a history of poor NFL QB quality.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

Because the coaching staff and scheme doesn’t prepare them for the NFL at all.

In general or at Ohio State?

There are a few positions that I actually helmet scout and irrationally believe in, if for nothing else due to position coaching and scheme:

*Iowa Tight Ends and ZBS OL

*Ohio State Wide Receivers, RB, and DL

*Alabama Cornerbacks and interior DL (value picks usually)

*Notre Dame OL and occasionally some TE

...and I'm sure I'll think of others.

I'll make a "wary list" later, but usually OU QBs are on the list, whereas I've liked their OL and RBs historically speaking.

The wary list starts with any defender who plays in the BIG XII unless they play for Baylor or TCU to be honest.

[rackcs]

I think you can have an expectation for a player based on the coaching/scheme they're in but at the end of the day you have to evaluate that player as an individual. If you see an Ohio State QB and immediately write him off without watching him, that's just lazy helmet scouting. If you you see an Ohio State QB and you say, oh this is where I think OSU QBs have had issues translating to the pros in the past, let's see if he's similar when I watch him, that's not helmet scouting. At the end of the day, we all have preconceptions about guys before we watch them whether it's because of their school, things you've heard about them, whatever the reason. You just still have to treat them as an individual and evaluate them on their own body of work.

Edited October 25, 2022 by rackcs

[Scoundrel]

On 10/24/2022 at 6:32 AM, Scoundrel said:

Just for clarification sake since I wrote Singapore’s plan does that make me essentially a co owner this week in the sense only one of Sir or I can vote on that matchup? 

 

[Ragnarok]

4 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

 

I'd lean towards the "only one of you or SirA should vote so defer to his vote but if he doesn't vote then go for it" answer.

[LAOJoe]

Seems like a fair penalty for not writing the plan. Heck maybe originally the writer may have picked the other team had they not written it themselves. Having someone write it for you and essentially getting a free vote from them seems unfair if the owner also votes.

Edited October 25, 2022 by LAOJoe

[Scoundrel]

1 minute ago, LAOJoe said:

Seems like a fair penalty for not writing the plan. Heck maybe originally the writer may have picked the other team had they not written it themselves. Having someone write it for you and essentially getting a free vote from them seems unfair if the owner also votes.

100% I just want to make sure it’s set in place for any future situations.