State of the Steelers

[Dcash4]

29 minutes ago, cjfollett said:

Need to see substantial OL pass protection, IMO. If OMGTK Kenny has to continually bail on the pocket, then it will be much like last season.

I am not sure that's going to be fixed by improving the OLs protection. Kenny bails on clean pockets and that's a thing he did in college as well. He might ultimately be a Big Ben type where pass protection from the OL isn't necessarily the main trait you look for because your QB is a bit different. 

I do hope Kenny learns to play more from the pocket. His biggest growth will be from doing the mundane things consistently. 

[cjfollett]

1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

I am not sure that's going to be fixed by improving the OLs protection. Kenny bails on clean pockets and that's a thing he did in college as well. He might ultimately be a Big Ben type where pass protection from the OL isn't necessarily the main trait you look for because your QB is a bit different. 

I do hope Kenny learns to play more from the pocket. His biggest growth will be from doing the mundane things consistently. 

That's valid. Extending the play is definitely a part of his game.

However, I believe the bailing on a clean pocket is directly tied to not trusting his LT. Moore whiffs a lot, and the combination of Moore and Dotson on that left side was atrocious at times, and just plain bad most of the other times. With competent OL play and not feeling heat on the majority of snaps, I hope that Pickett can learn to stay in the pocket longer. There were so many plays that if there was just a split second longer, receivers were open all over the field. 

There is a lot of room for improvement by the O in many areas. I'd like to see what they can do with better OL play, and I am hopeful with the new FAs and a franchise LT, we will see that.

[Dcash4]

42 minutes ago, cjfollett said:

That's valid. Extending the play is definitely a part of his game.

However, I believe the bailing on a clean pocket is directly tied to not trusting his LT. Moore whiffs a lot, and the combination of Moore and Dotson on that left side was atrocious at times, and just plain bad most of the other times. With competent OL play and not feeling heat on the majority of snaps, I hope that Pickett can learn to stay in the pocket longer. There were so many plays that if there was just a split second longer, receivers were open all over the field. 

There is a lot of room for improvement by the O in many areas. I'd like to see what they can do with better OL play, and I am hopeful with the new FAs and a franchise LT, we will see that.

You could absolutely be right. I know they talk about potential scarring from old issues in college. IMO, his pocket presence is so random, so I have a hard time nailing it down to one thing other than it's what his instincts say to do. 

That Ravens game winner is always a perfect example for me. First he decides to leave a clean pocket, but even if it was because he didn't trust Moore -- he completely takes the wrong exit route and puts himself in the danger (while then throwing a dart that would have been a touchdown to 2 different players and personally I think Najee robbed him from an ever better looking play if he would nailed sims right in the money). 

I am kinda in no-man's land for Tackle now. I want a stud LT, but I also kinda wanna see how Kenny's game evolves. If he can break that habit and fight instinct to stay in the pocket and execute -- let's go pay $20M+ a year or trade up and get a stud for him. But if he continues to do his kinda random pocket decisions, I'm comfortable rolling with more cost effective, checks the box guys (of which I think Moore likely is). 

My example for why: I think the Ravens wasted $20M in cap space extending Stanley when Lamar's game does not benefit from having a top pass blocking tackle. I don't want to overspend assets on a trait that might not be the best fit for the QB style. It's a bit of chicken or the egg, but right now I am team "Run blocking" because I don't know that Kenny will play within the confines of the pocket and it's rules and might be capable of avoiding issues on his own. 

[MOSteelers56]

Pretty solid points there @Dcash4 It's tough to argue with that logic. 

[warfelg]

Interesting play tracking thought:

Both of Kenny’s concussions came from blown blocks/assignments on the left side.  PFF attributed Moore with one of them and Cole with the other.  Most other places have credited Dodson with the blown block.  I would be curious as to where his bigger hits came from last year and in college but my gut feeling would be that majority of those have come from his left, and that’s the area he’s looking to when he bails on the pocket.

[Dcash4]

20 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Interesting play tracking thought:

Both of Kenny’s concussions came from blown blocks/assignments on the left side.  PFF attributed Moore with one of them and Cole with the other.  Most other places have credited Dodson with the blown block.  I would be curious as to where his bigger hits came from last year and in college but my gut feeling would be that majority of those have come from his left, and that’s the area he’s looking to when he bails on the pocket.

Quickly pulled up some youtubes because I was curious, and I really don't see how either of them go on Moore. Maybe I am wrong on the games, but I had them down for Tampa and the Ravens. 

Tampa is pressure right up the gut by White beating Dotson too slow coming off a double. The Ravens was pressure between Dotson/Cole and Kenny escaping that pressure but getting caught scrambling to his right. 

Tampa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6neSLFpnXIk (interestingly enough -- Moore isn't even in the game**).

Ravens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSZNUlVAwOQ

Dotson just always seems to be around problems. 

It would be interesting to see where most of the pressure has come from for Kenny, but I am still not sure that locking down the pass blocking would change his style. It's hard to break instinct and that's what I chalk kenny up to. 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Dcash4
** Wrong on that, Scott is in the game as an extra tackle so Moore was just inside of him

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Quickly pulled up some youtubes because I was curious, and I really don't see how either of them go on Moore. Maybe I am wrong on the games, but I had them down for Tampa and the Ravens. 

Tampa is pressure right up the gut by White beating Dotson too slow coming off a double. The Ravens was pressure between Dotson/Cole and Kenny escaping that pressure but getting caught scrambling to his right. 

Tampa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6neSLFpnXIk (interestingly enough -- Moore isn't even in the game**).

Ravens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSZNUlVAwOQ

Dotson just always seems to be around problems. 

It’s PFF and they live in their biases.  They rated Moore lower than Dotson to start the year so they need to keep him there.

6 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

It would be interesting to see where most of the pressure has come from for Kenny, but I am still not sure that locking down the pass blocking would change his style. It's hard to break instinct and that's what I chalk kenny up to. 

If his hits are repeatedly blindside it could give you an answer as to why that instinct is that.  But I wholeheartedly disagree with the conclusion that not locking down the pass blocking is the answer.  

[cjfollett]

As an aside, I really like the discourse on this MB for most threads. 

[Dcash4]

5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

But I wholeheartedly disagree with the conclusion that not locking down the pass blocking is the answer.  

I didn't say it's the answer, I said I don't think it will change Kenny's style. And if Kenny's style still weighs more on creativity than structure, I am not sure I want to overly spend on assets to create something he doesn't want to play within. 

I do think they saw Dotson as a major issue and did everything they could to fix that. But Kenny's style is very random IMO. If the left was a concern, he wouldn't float left or try to escape that way as much, it would honestly be the opposite. 

[warfelg]

15 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

I didn't say it's the answer, I said I don't think it will change Kenny's style. And if Kenny's style still weighs more on creativity than structure, I am not sure I want to overly spend on assets to create something he doesn't want to play within. 

I do think they saw Dotson as a major issue and did everything they could to fix that. But Kenny's style is very random IMO. If the left was a concern, he wouldn't float left or try to escape that way as much, it would honestly be the opposite. 

I get where your coming from but I’ll give you my galaxy brain thinking meme here:

 

Invest in the LT spot and make it rock solid.  If Kenny doesn’t improve and starts drifting worse, you have an OL set in place and invested in, along with a defense by now would be rebuilt - I’d trade up in a draft with good QB’s and get another rookie contract so you can pay an established line at that point.

[bigben07MVP]

 

[warfelg]

24 minutes ago, bigben07MVP said:

 

If Daniels plays C and Herbig plays I think we would be the only like where 4/5 players wear a number in the 70’s. 
 

Moore 65

Seumalo 73

Daniels 78

Herbig 70

Okorafor 76

 

Moore needs a 70’s number or our rookie needs one. That would be awesome. If they end up being good they could be called the “Super 7’s”.

[MOSteelers56]

65 is such a bad number for a starting OT. 65 is for a backup interior guy IMO. 

[warfelg]

Just now, MOSteelers56 said:

65 is such a bad number for a starting OT. 65 is for a backup interior guy IMO. 

I miss the old OL number rules of 70’s is tackles, 60’s is guards, 50’s is centers. 
 

I forget what team (cowboys?) proposed the change but they did so because they retired so many OL numbers they ran out of 60’s to give out to guards and had to give them 70’s. 
 

Conversely I like the skill player number change thing. The only challenge was guys who were with the same team and changed numbers. 

[Dcash4]

58 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Invest in the LT spot and make it rock solid.  If Kenny doesn’t improve and starts drifting worse, you have an OL set in place and invested in, along with a defense by now would be rebuilt - I’d trade up in a draft with good QB’s and get another rookie contract so you can pay an established line at that point.

Again, just my opinion, but I still want to see what Kenny is before molding this team around him. That's kinda why I wouldn't mind leaving things alone on that side of the ball. If you invest in OT but he thrives on the creativity, that pick may have been better spent elsewhere. 

After this year, we should have a good sense of who Kenny is and what we should be -- and then we go like all these other teams with 3rd year QBs....All in.