Jokic have GOAT potential?

[THE DUKE]

4 minutes ago, Mox said:

It's difficult for anyone to break into the top 10 but there are a handful of guys there that I think Jokic has a shot at a passing.

Exactly.  

As for the second part, that's why I said hard pressed, not impossible.  If he does what he's doing now for another 10 years, injury free, and wins multiple rings along the way, then he's absolutely in the discussion then for top 10.  That said, that's a tall order for a guy who has zero rings so far, but he has a decent shot at changing that in the next month.

[Mox]

9 minutes ago, THE DUKE said:

Exactly.  

As for the second part, that's why I said hard pressed, not impossible.  If he does what he's doing now for another 10 years, injury free, and wins multiple rings along the way, then he's absolutely in the discussion then for top 10.  That said, that's a tall order for a guy who has zero rings so far, but he has a decent shot at changing that in the next month.

If he does what he's doing now for another ten years plus winning multiple rings he's contending for #1 not #10.

[THE DUKE]

24 minutes ago, Mox said:

If he does what he's doing now for another ten years plus winning multiple rings he's contending for #1 not #10.

I think it's still a tall order in that scenario to be over Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, etc....

[Mox]

3 minutes ago, THE DUKE said:

I think it's still a tall order in that scenario to be over Jordan, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, etc....

Ten more years of this level of Jokic quite easily passes Bird/Magic/Kobe. People refuse to acknowledge it because he hasn't won a ring yet but Jokic is already better than Kobe ever was. That'd be 13 historically great seasons, plus multiple other excellent ones, and even with being screwed out of this MVP, that'd probably have him in the 5-6 MVP range. That should comfortably put him ahead of Duncan/Wilt too. Then you're up in the top four who all have their own arguments for #1, which Jokic would definitely have in that case. 

[Fresh Prince]

24 minutes ago, Mox said:

Ten more years of this level of Jokic quite easily passes Bird/Magic/Kobe. People refuse to acknowledge it because he hasn't won a ring yet but Jokic is already better than Kobe ever was. That'd be 13 historically great seasons, plus multiple other excellent ones, and even with being screwed out of this MVP, that'd probably have him in the 5-6 MVP range. That should comfortably put him ahead of Duncan/Wilt too. Then you're up in the top four who all have their own arguments for #1, which Jokic would definitely have in that case. 

All this sounds good but like you said, ten more seasons 

[Mox]

8 minutes ago, Fresh Prince said:

All this sounds good but like you said, ten more seasons 

Ten seasons were his parameter. Won't take nearly that long for me to have pass some of those guys (barring injury, at his current level of play, etc.). Now being the actual GOAT, we'll see. That's an insane bar.

[seminoles1]

2 hours ago, THE DUKE said:

Exactly.  

As for the second part, that's why I said hard pressed, not impossible.  If he does what he's doing now for another 10 years, injury free, and wins multiple rings along the way, then he's absolutely in the discussion then for top 10.  That said, that's a tall order for a guy who has zero rings so far, but he has a decent shot at changing that in the next month.

10 more years of what he's been doing with multiple rings? He's #1.

Edited May 16, 2023 by seminoles1

[jrry32]

3 hours ago, Mox said:

Ten more years of this level of Jokic quite easily passes Bird/Magic/Kobe. People refuse to acknowledge it because he hasn't won a ring yet but Jokic is already better than Kobe ever was. That'd be 13 historically great seasons, plus multiple other excellent ones, and even with being screwed out of this MVP, that'd probably have him in the 5-6 MVP range. That should comfortably put him ahead of Duncan/Wilt too. Then you're up in the top four who all have their own arguments for #1, which Jokic would definitely have in that case. 

Naaaaaaaaah.

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Naaaaaaaaah.

You'll get on board eventually. Peak for peak, I'm not really even sure what the argument for Kobe would be.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Mox said:

You'll get on board eventually. Peak for peak, I'm not really even sure what the argument for Kobe would be.

Peak Kobe was an elite defender and the league's best scorer, in addition to being a good rebounder and passer. He dragged a team to the playoffs with Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Chris Mihm as its other starters. It's nuts to think it's not even an argument. Recency bias.

[AkronsWitness]

2 hours ago, Mox said:

You'll get on board eventually. Peak for peak, I'm not really even sure what the argument for Kobe would be.

I think a lot of it has to do with play style. Not saying that Kobe wasnt impressive as hell, but we have already seen Kobe before (MJ) and we have tons of players currently in the NBA trying to imitate his game as well which sort of cheapens it.

Guys like Shaq/LeBron/Jokic are so so special and go higher in rankings for me because their styles are not duplicatable. LeBron has been in the league for 20 years and there hasnt been a single other player or prospect to play like him. However, we have 30 Kobe wannabes running around the NBA right now. Shaq because of size and strength, same way. Jokic is in that same class to me, at least with 4-5 more years of similar production and hopefully a ring he can easily be a top 10 player of all time.

He has a uniqueness and dominance to his game that is worth of it, he just needs to stack the accolades and prove he can win a ring as the lead guy.

Edited May 16, 2023 by AkronsWitness

[Mox]

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Peak Kobe was an elite defender and the league's best scorer, in addition to being a good rebounder and passer. He dragged a team to the playoffs with Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Chris Mihm as its other starters. It's nuts to think it's not even an argument. Recency bias.

Jokic dragged a statistically worse team to a better record literally last year...while being the best offensive player in the NBA, and a good regular season defender at the most important defensive position. Nothing recently biased about it. 

The 2021-2022 Nuggets, outside of Nikola Jokic had a combined Value Over Replacement Player (VORP) of 2.5. They went 48-34. They went 46-28 with him, and 2-6 without him (outscored by 7 ppg). They also had the worst ORTG in the NBA when he was off the court.

The 2005-2006 Lakers, outside of Kobe Bryant had a combined VORP of 5.4. They went 45-37. They went 45-35 with him, and 0-2 without him (outscored by 7 ppg).

[jrry32]

2 minutes ago, Mox said:

Jokic dragged a statistically worse team to a better record literally last year...while being the best offensive player in the NBA, and a good regular season defender at the most important defensive position. Nothing recently biased about it. 

The 2021-2022 Nuggets, outside of Nikola Jokic had a combined Value Over Replacement Player (VORP) of 2.5. They went 48-34. They went 46-28 with him, and 2-6 without him (outscored by 7 ppg). They also had the worst ORTG in the NBA when he was off the court.

The 2005-2006 Lakers, outside of Kobe Bryant had a combined VORP of 5.4. They went 45-37. They went 45-35 with him, and 0-2 without him (outscored by 7 ppg).

There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics.

[Mox]

7 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics.

The defense of someone who saw their argument go up in flames.

[jrry32]

25 minutes ago, Mox said:

The defense of someone who saw their argument go up in flames.

Starters by career VORP (less Jokic and Kobe):

2005-06 Lakers

Smush Parker: 0.4 VORP in 4 years (-1.0 in the 2 years without Kobe)

Kwame Brown: -1.3 VORP in 12 years

Chris Mihm: -4.3 VORP in 8 years

Lamar Odom: 31.4 VORP in 14 years

2011-12 Nuggets

Jeff Green: 4.4 VORP in 15 years

Monte Morris: 5.3 VORP in 6 years

Will Barton: 6.9 VORP in 11 years

Aaron Gordon: 9.4 VORP in 9 years

To be fair, Jeff Green is old as hell, but he also was coming off a positive VORP season (0.6 in Brooklyn). While Lamar Odom was the best of the bunch, Jokic had at least three dudes around him who were above replacement talents over the course of their careers. Kobe had three dudes around him who were below replacement talents over the course of their careers.

Here's the perfect encapsulation of the ridiculousness of your argument. Your argument asks us to assume that Smush Paker (1.5 VORP in 2005-06) was a better guy to have as a teammate than every single one of Jokic's 2021-22 teammates, which includes Aaron Gordon and Monte Morris. That's laughable. As I said, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Edited May 16, 2023 by jrry32