Chiefs WR Corps

[onejayhawk]

15 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Watson can’t catch, and he doesn’t run routes right. He also doesn’t come back for the football. He gets open occasionally, but he’s just getting his cardio in like most of the Wr Corpse.

i honestly don’t understand the infatuation with him by the fanbase, he’s just a much cheaper version of MVS. I’m okay with keeping him because he’s cheap, but I barely trust him as a legit WR in this system. 

It isn't fanbase infatuation. it's the coaching staff.

Watson is a glue guy. You don't want to rely on him but he's good at all the stuff that doesn't show in the stat sheet.

[Chiefer]

1 minute ago, onejayhawk said:

It isn't fanbase infatuation. it's the coaching staff.

Watson is a glue guy. You don't want to rely on him but he's good at all the stuff that doesn't show in the stat sheet.

glue? Like a core special teamer who works hard? Then yes, he’s a glue guy. But he can’t be relied upon, Mahomes doesn’t trust him, just like he doesn’t trust MVS. 

The guy can get open no question, but he’s just as likely to drop it or not finish his route correctly as he is to catch it. Otherwise he’d be a much bigger part of the offense by now.

[Chiefer]

As for the draft, I’m hoping for Adonai Mitchell. They may go DT though, just depends on how things go late in the first 

[onejayhawk]

5 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

glue? Like a core special teamer who works hard? Then yes, he’s a glue guy. But he can’t be relied upon, Mahomes doesn’t trust him, just like he doesn’t trust MVS. 

The guy can get open no question, but he’s just as likely to drop it or not finish his route correctly as he is to catch it. Otherwise he’d be a much bigger part of the offense by now.

That would be a different sort of player and I am not sure if he would be a glue guy..

In this case, it's a WR who blocks, picks, runs supporting routs, is rarely in the top three options but is ready when called upon. As I said above, WR3.

[RedGold]

Watson is a decent 4 or 5.   Just someone who spells the starter on occasion and plays special teams.  I wouldn’t say it’s a good thing if he’s consistently on the field in 3 sets.      Push Moore/Watson/Toney back to 4/5/6 is what I’m hoping for this offseason.   Vet and a high draft capital rookie would do wonders 

[onejayhawk]

5 hours ago, RedGold said:

Watson is a decent 4 or 5.   Just someone who spells the starter on occasion and plays special teams.  I wouldn’t say it’s a good thing if he’s consistently on the field in 3 sets.      Push Moore/Watson/Toney back to 4/5/6 is what I’m hoping for this offseason.   Vet and a high draft capital rookie would do wonders 

That's not how they use Watson. That's how they use Richie James. Watson gets regular play as the blocking WR, ie the Demarcus Robinson role. 

Rice has seized the WR1 role. What they lack is a WR2 which is what they expected Toney to be. 

[RedGold]

1 hour ago, onejayhawk said:

That's not how they use Watson. That's how they use Richie James. Watson gets regular play as the blocking WR, ie the Demarcus Robinson role. 

Rice has seized the WR1 role. What they lack is a WR2 which is what they expected Toney to be. 

None of what you said changes anything I said?

[Jakuvious]

10 hours ago, Chiefer said:

glue? Like a core special teamer who works hard? Then yes, he’s a glue guy. But he can’t be relied upon, Mahomes doesn’t trust him, just like he doesn’t trust MVS. 

The guy can get open no question, but he’s just as likely to drop it or not finish his route correctly as he is to catch it. Otherwise he’d be a much bigger part of the offense by now.

Hm, I will actually disagree here. Prior to Rice coming along, I think Watson was as close as we had to a guy Mahomes did trust. There's a lot of meh to Watson's game, but the one thing he has going for him more than anything else, is Mahomes is quite fond. Watson had a much higher target rate per route run than MVS or Moore. He's second in the WR corp in targets despite seeing fewer snaps per game than MVS or Moore. Mahomes has thrown a bunch of passes Watson's way that he isn't even attempting with some of the other guys, especially corner and post routes. His ADOT is crazy high. I don't recall ever seeing Mahomes visibly frustrated with Watson like he has been with Toney, MVS, and Hardman at different points.

Now, Watson isn't great by any means. I do think he's better at MVS's role than MVS is. He can run those clear out routes, catch the occasional deep ball, blocks well downfield. It's the kind of stuff we've had Chris Conley or Demarcus Robinson doing in past years. Not gonna get you a ton of targets but it's an important role to do correctly. But Mahomes definitely trusts him more than most of the WR corp.

[Chiefer]

9 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Hm, I will actually disagree here. Prior to Rice coming along, I think Watson was as close as we had to a guy Mahomes did trust. There's a lot of meh to Watson's game, but the one thing he has going for him more than anything else, is Mahomes is quite fond. Watson had a much higher target rate per route run than MVS or Moore. He's second in the WR corp in targets despite seeing fewer snaps per game than MVS or Moore. Mahomes has thrown a bunch of passes Watson's way that he isn't even attempting with some of the other guys, especially corner and post routes. His ADOT is crazy high. I don't recall ever seeing Mahomes visibly frustrated with Watson like he has been with Toney, MVS, and Hardman at different points.

Now, Watson isn't great by any means. I do think he's better at MVS's role than MVS is. He can run those clear out routes, catch the occasional deep ball, blocks well downfield. It's the kind of stuff we've had Chris Conley or Demarcus Robinson doing in past years. Not gonna get you a ton of targets but it's an important role to do correctly. But Mahomes definitely trusts him more than most of the WR corp.

I think if Mahomes trusted him more he’d be a bigger part of the offense by now. We’re literally at rock bottom with this WR Corp, and he’s still not getting regular targets. I mean yeah if you want to put him on a higher trust level then Toney or MvS then yeah sure I’d agree. But that’s really not saying much, it’s a tier above a negative lol. The guy gets open consistently, hence why he gets some targets,  but he drops the ball a lot , doesn’t run routes correctly and doesn’t come back for the football. that relegates him to WR4 status. 

Just like a Demarcus Robinson or Conley, thing is those guys sucked lol, there’s a reason why they are no longer on the team. Conley ain’t even In the league anymore and Demarcus hops from team to team trying to survive. These roles they fill are deep backup/special teamer, that’s fine, but not trustworthy on offense unless Watson hands get better bare minimum. 

[Bullyball]

4 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

I think if Mahomes trusted him more he’d be a bigger part of the offense by now. We’re literally at rock bottom with this WR Corp, and he’s still not getting regular targets. I mean yeah if you want to put him on a higher trust level then Toney or MvS then yeah sure I’d agree. But that’s really not saying much, it’s a tier above a negative lol. The guy gets open consistently, hence why he gets some targets,  but he drops the ball a lot , doesn’t run routes correctly and doesn’t come back for the football. that relegates him to WR4 status. 

Just like a Demarcus Robinson or Conley, thing is those guys sucked lol, there’s a reason why they are no longer on the team. Conley ain’t even In the league anymore and Demarcus hops from team to team trying to survive. These roles they fill are deep backup/special teamer, that’s fine, but not trustworthy on offense unless Watson hands get better bare minimum. 

I would say this; the way Demarcus played for the Rams this year, I would take him over MVS, Watson, Toney, Hardman and Moore this year. He can track the football better than these guys lol (Not saying much)

[Jakuvious]

I've touched on this before, but our recent setup for the WR position in this offense has been three main roles, one who runs a lot of deep clear out routes to make space for the other guys, who also needs to block well on screens and plays out of bunch and tight formations. In past years this has been Chris Conley, Demarcus Robinson, MVS, Justin Watson. A gadget player who we try to get the ball to behind blockers or in space, this has been Tyreek, Mecole Hardman, Kadarius Toney. And then a possession guy who we expect to help move the chains and get open and catch the ball consistency. That's been in different ways Hill, Watkins, JuJu, and now Rice. We have often run a primary guy at each spot, and a backup at each spot. When Hill was here things were a little more flexible because he could do all three things, but post-Hill for sure, those have been the roles. Last year MVS was the clear out guy with Watson as the backup. Hardman was the gadget guy later replaced by Toney. JuJu was the possession guy backed up by Moore. This year Rice eventually took the spot of JuJu, which I think they intended to go to Moore, but Moore couldn't get open. James is a #3 for the gadgets and the possession stuff. And then everyone else has just been mildly crappier.

But you have to keep this in mind when projecting who we add and who sticks around.

[Jakuvious]

27 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

I think if Mahomes trusted him more he’d be a bigger part of the offense by now. We’re literally at rock bottom with this WR Corp, and he’s still not getting regular targets. I mean yeah if you want to put him on a higher trust level then Toney or MvS then yeah sure I’d agree. But that’s really not saying much, it’s a tier above a negative lol. The guy gets open consistently, hence why he gets some targets,  but he drops the ball a lot , doesn’t run routes correctly and doesn’t come back for the football. that relegates him to WR4 status. 

Just like a Demarcus Robinson or Conley, thing is those guys sucked lol, there’s a reason why they are no longer on the team. Conley ain’t even In the league anymore and Demarcus hops from team to team trying to survive. These roles they fill are deep backup/special teamer, that’s fine, but not trustworthy on offense unless Watson hands get better bare minimum. 

See, his role is never really going to make that a reality, though. He's not going to be a big part of the offense from a target volume perspective, but that doesn't mean he isn't key in his own way. He's the clear out guy, his job is not to get a ton of targets, but to make space, to block well, and to make the occasional big play when they ignore him. It's key that he makes the plays when he does, but the guy we have in that role is never going to be a 100+ target guy, barring us getting a truly elite version of that player. Watson and MVS have ADOTs of like 17 yards. That's a clear indication of role in the offense. If we add like, Mike Evans, sure, maybe he can man that role and still get a ton of targets because he's that elite as a deep threat. But we've had great offenses with guys in that role getting 3 - 4 targets per game, but doing their work in the small stuff enabling others. Watson is more able to do that than MVS. Should still try to improve on that, but Watson can definitely be the rotation guy in that role still next year and be fine.

Like, you criticize his hands, Watson's drop rate is basically the same as Rice's this year, despite a much higher difficulty of target (Watson's ADOT is around 17 yards, Rice is at less than 5 yards.)

Watson does his role fine. You just don't seem to understand what that is. Robinson and Conley also had their issues, but they were a key part of those systems working. Robinson was probably the best blocking WR we've had under Reid. Was just a shame he was as good at running backwards as he was at pushing defenders backwards.

And people keep using numbers, the whole WR1 WR4 WR5 thing, that's not really how that works with this offense, though. The depth chart depends on the concept. Depending on the play and the route, Watson could be our best WR for a given route, or legitimately the worst. And that's fine.

[RedGold]

29 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

See, his role is never really going to make that a reality, though. He's not going to be a big part of the offense from a target volume perspective, but that doesn't mean he isn't key in his own way. He's the clear out guy, his job is not to get a ton of targets, but to make space, to block well, and to make the occasional big play when they ignore him. It's key that he makes the plays when he does, but the guy we have in that role is never going to be a 100+ target guy, barring us getting a truly elite version of that player. Watson and MVS have ADOTs of like 17 yards. That's a clear indication of role in the offense. If we add like, Mike Evans, sure, maybe he can man that role and still get a ton of targets because he's that elite as a deep threat. But we've had great offenses with guys in that role getting 3 - 4 targets per game, but doing their work in the small stuff enabling others. Watson is more able to do that than MVS. Should still try to improve on that, but Watson can definitely be the rotation guy in that role still next year and be fine.

Like, you criticize his hands, Watson's drop rate is basically the same as Rice's this year, despite a much higher difficulty of target (Watson's ADOT is around 17 yards, Rice is at less than 5 yards.)

Watson does his role fine. You just don't seem to understand what that is. Robinson and Conley also had their issues, but they were a key part of those systems working. Robinson was probably the best blocking WR we've had under Reid. Was just a shame he was as good at running backwards as he was at pushing defenders backwards.

And people keep using numbers, the whole WR1 WR4 WR5 thing, that's not really how that works with this offense, though. The depth chart depends on the concept. Depending on the play and the route, Watson could be our best WR for a given route, or legitimately the worst. And that's fine.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this,  in fact I agree with most of it.     

If you don't want to call them WR 4/5/6.  That is okay,  as the team really wouldn't.

My main point,  is the goal for next year should be Watson/Moore/Toney all becoming package/play specific players and not seeing a majority of the snaps.     Bring in a Vet,  and draft an early rookie to bring along through the year.   

[Jakuvious]

Just now, RedGold said:

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this,  in fact I agree with most of it.     

If you don't want to call them WR 4/5/6.  That is okay,  as the team really wouldn't.

My main point,  is the goal for next year should be Watson/Moore/Toney all becoming package/play specific players and not seeing a majority of the snaps.     Bring in a Vet,  and draft an early rookie to bring along through the year.   

This we can definitely agree on. End result regardless is we need to improve the WR corp.

[Chiefer]

2 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

See, his role is never really going to make that a reality, though. He's not going to be a big part of the offense from a target volume perspective, but that doesn't mean he isn't key in his own way. He's the clear out guy, his job is not to get a ton of targets, but to make space, to block well, and to make the occasional big play when they ignore him. It's key that he makes the plays when he does, but the guy we have in that role is never going to be a 100+ target guy, barring us getting a truly elite version of that player. Watson and MVS have ADOTs of like 17 yards. That's a clear indication of role in the offense. If we add like, Mike Evans, sure, maybe he can man that role and still get a ton of targets because he's that elite as a deep threat. But we've had great offenses with guys in that role getting 3 - 4 targets per game, but doing their work in the small stuff enabling others. Watson is more able to do that than MVS. Should still try to improve on that, but Watson can definitely be the rotation guy in that role still next year and be fine.

Like, you criticize his hands, Watson's drop rate is basically the same as Rice's this year, despite a much higher difficulty of target (Watson's ADOT is around 17 yards, Rice is at less than 5 yards.)

Watson does his role fine. You just don't seem to understand what that is. Robinson and Conley also had their issues, but they were a key part of those systems working. Robinson was probably the best blocking WR we've had under Reid. Was just a shame he was as good at running backwards as he was at pushing defenders backwards.

And people keep using numbers, the whole WR1 WR4 WR5 thing, that's not really how that works with this offense, though. The depth chart depends on the concept. Depending on the play and the route, Watson could be our best WR for a given route, or legitimately the worst. And that's fine.

Yeah my thing is he’s in the role he’s in because he doesn’t catch well, doesn’t run routes correctly and doesn’t come back for the ball. Like his role will never expand in this offense, because he is who he is, and at that price it’s fine. Like we’re very willing to expand a WRs Role if a player is trustworthy, and reliable. But Watson is neither of those things, so he’s stuck in the role he’s in. 

Comparing a rookie to a seasoned vet is a big stretch there, Rice hasn’t dropped anywhere near the same balls the last couple months, and has largely cleaned that up as his role has expanded. While Watson has years of data backing up my assumption that he drops the ball. 
 

Like if he could catch the ball, run his routes correctly, and come back for the football, he’d easily see a larger target share and catch total. He’d be a number two WR in this offense pretty easily, but he’s not reliable on those facets so he won’t and his role won’t be expanded because of it. Unless he cleans it up, which I doubt because he’s been in the league for years