The case for not moving on from Tomlin....this year.

[zflairway]

He's a top 5 coach in the league. He has pedigree for taking weak teams and having them outperform the talent on the roster. Quite honestly, with another ring, he goes in the Hall of Fame. It would be a mistake to get rid of him for nothing. It might take five years to flip the talent in this meandering, non-wavering fashion. That's probably too much time on the hot seat, but he does have a propensity to bounce back.

I'd love to see him with full reigns in the NFC, and I would wish him nothing but the best.

[43M]

57 minutes ago, zflairway said:

He's a top 5 coach in the league. He has pedigree for taking weak teams and having them outperform the talent on the roster. Quite honestly, with another ring, he goes in the Hall of Fame. It would be a mistake to get rid of him for nothing. It might take five years to flip the talent in this meandering, non-wavering fashion. That's probably too much time on the hot seat, but he does have a propensity to bounce back.

I'd love to see him with full reigns in the NFC, and I would wish him nothing but the best.

He also has taken very talented teams and had them play significantly below their talent levels.   He rarely gets a full game of high level play from his teams, regardless of talent.  Im not saying its all on him, but we cant just cherry pick what he gets credit and blame for.   If he is responsible for the lesser teams playing above their talent, he is responsible for his more talented teams playing below it.

His only ring came with mostly established vets that were here before him, and an all time great DC leading and all time great D in 2008.   Im not saying Tomlin doesn't deserve any credit, but we absolutely wouldn't win a SB without LeBeau in 2008.

Tomlin does have his positive qualities, but Im curious how he is a top 5 coach.    I might concede top 10, but only because I believe there are only 5 to 8 coaches who are truly good, and everyone else is in the average or worse club.

I dont think it would be easy to significantly improve from Tomlin, but Ive seen enough to feel confident he is absolutely nothing special as a coach.

I respect that some like him more than I do, but after years of defending the guy, I ultimately had to accept some hard facts about the gaping holes in his coaching abilities.

 

[zflairway]

11 minutes ago, 43M said:

He also has taken very talented teams and had them play significantly below their talent levels.   He rarely gets a full game of high level play from his teams, regardless of talent.  Im not saying its all on him, but we cant just cherry pick what he gets credit and blame for.   If he is responsible for the lesser teams playing above their talent, he is responsible for his more talented teams playing below it.

 

The 2015 run or so must be what you're alluding to. It's a confluence and a meeting or a lack of meeting of the heads. In respect to the way they conducted themselves on and off the field, many of the players they drafted below their respected rankings over the years somewhat buried them in terms of reliability (or signability) in the future. And, ultimately maybe a more demanding coach with respect to personality could have had a greater affect. Most of the other teams don't really have this problem, which makes you think that the policing of the locker room is done more so internally with the players as it should.

 

11 minutes ago, 43M said:

His only ring came with mostly established vets that were here before him, and an all time great DC leading and all time great D in 2008.   Im not saying Tomlin doesn't deserve any credit, but we absolutely wouldn't win a SB without LeBeau in 2008.

 

That's like a wet well of activity, and it's an established locker room with Mike almost as a passenger on the ride. The players had discipline from the predecessor, so his weakness could be muddied in the waters so to speak, as the policing of men is his weakest suit, as he is more of a pat on the back, as opposed to a rah rah get in your face. 

 

11 minutes ago, 43M said:

Tomlin does have his positive qualities, but Im curious how he is a top 5 coach.    I might concede top 10, but only because I believe there are only 5 to 8 coaches who are truly good, and everyone else is in the average or worse club.

 

That's a nice concession the de facto concession after the fact.

I see one man carrying the load, and I base that off of the fact they pay him and no one else. They have the fewest coaches (probably) in the league. The coaches they do have probably are best suited with a different career path. I don't believe he has a say in his coaching staff. It's like bottom of the barrel, and we promote internally, or someone we are comfortable with (as an organization).

We don't score enough points. We need a legitimate offensive coordinator, not Fichtner or Canada. But it comes back to if Mike is going to get the $10m, then there's only $2m to go around for the rest of the staff. And that's how I believe it is run. He's handcuffed to a hand grenade. They don't even have a plethora of guys to be assistants, where you can pay 'em a hundred grand, which would be like someone to help gameplan, to catch this offense up to the new age. It was almost like oh, JPJ just got rubbed in the flat, let's do that. And they scored on it.

To answer your question, he shouldn't have the challenge flag, they should have someone helping him. He shouldn't police the locker room, he should have someone do that for him. He shouldn't gameplan, he should have someone do that for him. Then he can focus on the job of a head coach like overseeing the production of the process instead of being responsible for creating the batter. His best attribute is his oversight of the process, because he is a good leader.

But we can never see that because he's spending too much time in the kitchen, because who is he gonna trust on that coaching staff. 

 

11 minutes ago, 43M said:

I dont think it would be easy to significantly improve from Tomlin, but Ive seen enough to feel confident he is absolutely nothing special as a coach.

I respect that some like him more than I do, but after years of defending the guy, I ultimately had to accept some hard facts about the gaping holes in his coaching abilities.

 

It's not easy to improve from Tomlin, and it's almost a guaranteed downgrade. 

[43M]

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

 

The 2015 run or so must be what you're alluding to. It's a confluence and a meeting or a lack of meeting of the heads. In respect to the way they conducted themselves on and off the field, many of the players they drafted below their respected rankings over the years somewhat buried them in terms of reliability (or signability) in the future. And, ultimately maybe a more demanding coach with respect to personality could have had a greater affect. Most of the other teams don't really have this problem, which makes you think that the policing of the locker room is done more so internally with the players as it should.

Its more than just 2015.....and its more than just playoffs.

This team rarely learns from past mistakes under Tomlin, they rarely play complete ganes, and they  get completely outclassed and outcoached too often for a team with a supposed top head coach.

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

That's like a wet well of activity, and it's an established locker room with Mike almost as a passenger on the ride. The players had discipline from the predecessor, so his weakness could be muddied in the waters so to speak, as the policing of men is his weakest suit, as he is more of a pat on the back, as opposed to a rah rah get in your face. 

So Im not sure....what exactly does Tomlin do for this team if he isnt managing the locker room and "rallying the troops", so to speak?   

Because thats SUPPOSEDLY one of his greatest strengths.

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

That's a nice concession the de facto concession after the fact.

I see one man carrying the load, and I base that off of the fact they pay him and no one else. They have the fewest coaches (probably) in the league. The coaches they do have probably are best suited with a different career path. I don't believe he has a say in his coaching staff. It's like bottom of the barrel, and we promote internally, or someone we are comfortable with (as an organization).

Still waiting to hear all of Tomlin's good qualities.   All Im seeing is excuse after excuse and blaming everyone EXCEPT him for the state of this team.

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

We don't score enough points. We need a legitimate offensive coordinator, not Fichtner or Canada. But it comes back to if Mike is going to get the $10m, then there's only $2m to go around for the rest of the staff. And that's how I believe it is run. He's handcuffed to a hand grenade. They don't even have a plethora of guys to be assistants, where you can pay 'em a hundred grand, which would be like someone to help gameplan, to catch this offense up to the new age. It was almost like oh, JPJ just got rubbed in the flat, let's do that. And they scored on it.

I dont think anyone would argue we dont need a better offense and better people running it.

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

To answer your question, he shouldn't have the challenge flag, they should have someone helping him. He shouldn't police the locker room, he should have someone do that for him. He shouldn't gameplan, he should have someone do that for him. Then he can focus on the job of a head coach like overseeing the production of the process instead of being responsible for creating the batter. His best attribute is his oversight of the process, because he is a good leader.

Well, at least we're getting somewhere with answering questions...even though youre basically acting like none of those fall under the purview of head coaching responsibilities.

What exactly does "overseeing the production of the process" mean?   Because it sounds extremely vague.

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

It's not easy to improve from Tomlin, and it's almost a guaranteed downgrade. 

Maybe....maybe not....but we cant keep watching a team fail over and over, and in the same ways in many cases for years on end and act like the head coach doesn't share a good portion of the responsibility for those failures.     

If he isnt responsible for alot of these things, what does he do, exactly?

If he needs his held hand in so many areas, chances are, he isn’t nearly as good as he's often portrayed.

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

It's not easy to improve from Tomlin, and it's almost a guaranteed downgrade. 

what about the rookie  HC's that defeated tomlin this year?   How do you know it's almost  guaranteed downgrade ?  

I won't be wasting much time on this but thought I may as well ask seeing that you are new here, so please explain . 

 

[3rivers]

25 minutes ago, 43M said:

If he isnt responsible for alot of these things, what does he do, exactly?

what do you make about how the media seems to blame canada, yet never really highlight how tomlin was responsible for  canada being here as long as he was. Seems like they let him have a mulligan when it came to this.   I thought some media anyways, would be questioning how this will affect a young QB1 early in his career and the importance of getting the OC right  for that alone.  

As it  is, this team will be going into year 3 for KP and not know what he actually is capable of, just a few hints over 2 years , thats it. 

 I am at the point where they need to trade tomlin for me to consider watching next year barring a miracle.  They have to clean house too, I would prefer keep GP but remove dionte, cole, chuks, moore ( as a starter) , najee and mitch. Thats a start,  and get OT and C  early in the draft, then if tomlin and company  does all that, maybe I'll be able to tolerate this team. 

It's been 5 years now, and just about the worst team to watch other than when a few other  teams were really out of it for some weeks. And football isn't that good either, so thats bad in the overall picture.  Ironically the Cardinals early in the year weren't winning but had effort and they beat the steelers in Pitt while a 2 win team.  

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

We don't score enough points. We need a legitimate offensive coordinator, not Fichtner or Canada.

no doubt, but who do we get to hire the OC? We can't have the same person that picked fichner or canada, thats a mistake tomlin approved or not, just forget it. 

4 hours ago, zflairway said:

To answer your question, he shouldn't have the challenge flag, they should have someone helping him. He shouldn't police the locker room, he should have someone do that for him.

tell AR2 to hire a kid off the street and have him sit upstairs with the replays and be ready , that would be better. As for the locker room, the HC sets the tone for the team IMO.  They have to interact with players, correct them in real time when they get to the sidelines if required. Cowher would get into peoples faces with the chin, Noll would at times too (no chin) . HC can't just text/fax through others to the players especially with the generation the way it is. 

6 hours ago, zflairway said:

He's a top 5 coach in the league. He has pedigree for taking weak teams and having them outperform the talent on the roster. Quite honestly, with another ring, he goes in the Hall of Fame. It would be a mistake to get rid of him for nothing. It might take five years to flip the talent in this meandering, non-wavering fashion. That's probably too much time on the hot seat, but he does have a propensity to bounce back.

trade him for RD1 and RD3, never fire or release for nothing. 

don't agree he is near what you think, different view on that.  Constantly plays down to bad teams, no real playoff wins since 2010 probably and those were still lots of cowhers players and culture still going decently. 

bounce back would be interesting to say the least because it would be with a QB he was reluctant to play  (mason).  What if Mason actually helps the team win these last few games, how does that make tomlin look considering the mitch signing and having mason sit all this time?  

I was looking forward to the  bench mitch chants, but tomlin mysteriously is deciding to start mason and remove the possible chants  He should have pulled mitch much sooner in the colts game - season was on the line.  Should have kicked the FG as well, that typical word salad explanation was as lame as it gets. 

[3rivers]

If Tomlin pounds the table for RD1  OT and C and brings back Munchak ,  thats a start. 

Munchak -  top priority, we all know this will help

[3rivers]

https://steelersnow.com/chris-boswell-isnt-hurt-mike-tomlin-just-didnt-trust-him/

arguably the best kicker in the nFL this season, yet tomlin did this. Not that it would have won the game but questionable to say the least

[zflairway]

15 hours ago, 43M said:

Its more than just 2015.....and its more than just playoffs.

This team rarely learns from past mistakes under Tomlin, they rarely play complete ganes, and they  get completely outclassed and outcoached too often for a team with a supposed top head coach.

15 hours ago, 43M said:

So Im not sure....what exactly does Tomlin do for this team if he isnt managing the locker room and "rallying the troops", so to speak?   

Because thats SUPPOSEDLY one of his greatest strengths.

Still waiting to hear all of Tomlin's good qualities.   All Im seeing is excuse after excuse and blaming everyone EXCEPT him for the state of this team.

I dont think anyone would argue we dont need a better offense and better people running it.

Well, at least we're getting somewhere with answering questions...even though youre basically acting like none of those fall under the purview of head coaching responsibilities.

What exactly does "overseeing the production of the process" mean?   Because it sounds extremely vague.

Maybe....maybe not....but we cant keep watching a team fail over and over, and in the same ways in many cases for years on end and act like the head coach doesn't share a good portion of the responsibility for those failures.     

If he isnt responsible for alot of these things, what does he do, exactly?

If he needs his held hand in so many areas, chances are, he isn’t nearly as good as he's often portrayed.

 

One of my favorite collegiate lessons was on the 6 hats of entrepreneurship.

I'd classify overseeing the process as blue hat. Somewhat like a CEO. The other people are responsible for bringing their ideas to the table and the CEO guides the direction of the company. If the ideas are bad, the product will be bad, and one could say with obviously no ideas coming down the pipeline from this phenomenal coaching tree, it is a testament to the leader for getting such good production.

Managing the locker room and rallying the troops are apples and oranges. Managing the locker room is green hat. It's growth. Cohesion. Keeping it together. Rallying the troops is yellow hat. You walk around before game time saying how wonderful you are and keeping people at ease.

What does a CEO do? He does everything.

[zflairway]

15 hours ago, 3rivers said:

what about the rookie  HC's that defeated tomlin this year?   How do you know it's almost  guaranteed downgrade ?  

I won't be wasting much time on this but thought I may as well ask seeing that you are new here, so please explain . 

 

Name three.

[zflairway]

14 hours ago, 3rivers said:

As for the locker room, the HC sets the tone for the team IMO.  They have to interact with players, correct them in real time when they get to the sidelines if required. Cowher would get into peoples faces with the chin, Noll would at times too (no chin) . HC can't just text/fax through others to the players especially with the generation the way it is.

Young men with millions of dollars aren't going to listen to someone tell them how to act. Sure you can fine them to correct behavior but you kind of lose them at the same time with such a maneuver. A lot of these guys came from nothing and such an act almost seems criminal. That's why the players must discipline themselves. Like if Brady says don't do it there's a respect factor and people listen. Or like Ray Lewis. Or someone of that character.

The Steelers don't have this kind of guy which is why they have locker room problems. Their leaders are more passive or just good players. They don't really have that vocal leader whether it be a coach or a player which is why the locker room is in disarray. Because there is no accountability.

14 hours ago, 3rivers said:

rope a dope

 

[3rivers]

1 minute ago, zflairway said:

Name three.

gannon , steichen , ryans  in 2023

3/3 - 100% loss rate vs rookie coaches

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, zflairway said:

They don't really have that vocal leader whether it be a coach or a player which is why the locker room is in disarray. Because there is no accountability.

16 hours ago, 3rivers said:

this team could be in bad shape for a while as a result.  The current 'leaders' aren't getting it done if they are to be the ones to get the others to play better.  If/when/ how will they get new leaders is anyones guess.  A legit OC and QB would go a long ways to mask these flaws, but this team has neither  

[Dcash4]

1 hour ago, zflairway said:

Like if Brady says don't do it there's a respect factor and people listen. Or like Ray Lewis. Or someone of that character.

Someone like.....Mike Tomlin?

Are you suggesting here that Mike Tomlin does not have the players respect or that he doesn't have the ability/wellness to reach them?

Because leadership is supposed to be his strong suit. You said so yourself. If leadership ultimately isn't on the menu with him, the rest of the meal isn't all that appetizing. 

[3rivers]

even if tomlin drafts a legit QB and gets an OC, guess what?

the defence is terrible along the front as this clip shows.  Players don't fit the scheme and something or both has to change