The case for not moving on from Tomlin....this year.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Do we throw the entire culture out because 5 young jerks don’t buy in? That’s what I took from TJ’s can’t lead a horse to water comment. 

I think as all the things that are going on with the team continue to evolve, that's what you come back to.  It's not that the team is lost, it's that there are guys who never bought in that now need to be more invested in order to make it work....and they aren't getting invested and it's costing the entire team.

[Dcash4]

17 minutes ago, warfelg said:

It's not that the team is lost, it's that there are guys who never bought in that now need to be more invested in order to make it work....and they aren't getting invested and it's costing the entire team.

Genuinely curious. At what point do you think it's the coaches responsibility, if at all, to seek player buy in or to course correct to not allow that lack of buy in to infect the team?

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

Genuinely curious. At what point do you think it's the coaches responsibility, if at all, to seek player buy in or to course correct to not allow that lack of buy in to infect the team?

I think that the coach always has a responsibility to try, but there's just some who won't buy in no matter how much a coach does.  I feel like there's often an assumption that the coach isn't trying when this happens and usually they are trying.  The hard part is not all players respond to the same thing of the coach pushing players.  I've coached plenty of players where it took the "peer pressure" to get buy in, I've had a few cases where it took punishing the whole team, a few cases where a benching worked, and two cases I just had to kick the kid off the team. 

The reason I don't love constantly blaming coaching is they just can't constantly do this.  They can't sit next to them in every minute of practice forcing the player to give their all, can't sit there in every film study to make sure they understand every nuanced detail, be in the weight room for max weight on every rep, every meal.  It's just not possible.  Other wide you would need a coach for every single player.  And it's healthy to give the locker room space to breath without coaches, giving players time to be a team, letting player leaders set a culture.

[rlon]

Case for moving in from Tomlin…he’s starting Pickens this week…

[3rivers]

47 minutes ago, rlon said:

Case for moving in from Tomlin…he’s starting Pickens this week…

if GP gets serious and has a great game, then tomlin is in the good.

if GP  has these bad efforts and keeps playing, then I can see the critics of tomlin . The question is, how much should he tolerate?

GP needs to stop with this and just play.  If he can't give 100% then time to trade him 

3 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

Genuinely curious. At what point do you think it's the coaches responsibility, if at all, to seek player buy in or to course correct to not allow that lack of buy in to infect the team?

this will vary most of the time mainly because of talent and favouritism as a result. Like it or not (I don't like it at all) , there is a double standard and elite talent players will get some extra toleration when compared to say undrafted rookies. It's not ideal, but it happens, we saw AB and Ben now it's GP .  Ben and AB were on HOF trajectory or should be 1st ballot, while GP is still in his rookie deal and on a terrible passing offence.  Slight difference to consider, if that matters. 

I would expect tomlin sat down with GP and told him enough of the BS, lets get real. If GP continues with the poor effort, then bench him and then trade. 

[3rivers]

get a real OL coach, this team has regressed at OL

 

 

[zflairway]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:22 PM, 3rivers said:

gannon , steichen , ryans  in 2023

3/3 - 100% loss rate vs rookie coaches

that's a good argument in a bubble. This is a marathon and not a sprint. I'm sure Tomlin will have a longer head coaching career than all three combined. Probably in the neighborhood of 27 years (or however long he wants).

Demeco Ryans probably get halfway through year four before he has to go back to the college ranks. Gannon and Steichen will live out illustrious careers here for a Kingsbury, and then recede back to OC jobs or back to college.  The problem with your argument is feel. Yanno and these guys just feel like offensive coordinators. Like Ben Johnson just feels like a career OC. They just never got that whole helping of swagger. Just a few pieces shy of the puzzle. Just not quite enough 😔

Mike Macdonald would probably be the guy for me. If you could bring him in around $5 million and then go after a up and coming college guy like Brian Hartline to be the OC you could save some bucks to fill out the staff and start building a tree like McVay. Probably poach Oklahoma State's finest Zac Robinson to be QB coach. It'll take three to replace Coach T 🤖

 

 

[zflairway]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:48 PM, Dcash4 said:

 

It's hard to lead a sinking ship, one you were complicit in creating, yet handcuffed in never really making any decisions. You can look at the Michelle Shazier post as the antithesis of dysfunction. They must have just swept him [Ryan] under the rug. One of their best players. Everything else is just personal fodder.

[3rivers]

25 minutes ago, zflairway said:

that's a good argument in a bubble. This is a marathon and not a sprint.

if tomlin keep losing to  rookies, it should be a sprint because the coach should be replaced if that keeps happening. 

27 minutes ago, zflairway said:

I'm sure Tomlin will have a longer head coaching career than all three combined. Probably in the neighborhood of 27 years (or however long he wants).

How are you so sure and what is the point of this comment? I don't care if a HC  can keep a job being Mr.529 . 

28 minutes ago, zflairway said:

The problem with your argument is feel

the problem is  being a fan of this team and what we have endured for a very long time. Feel  when we should be numb 

26 minutes ago, zflairway said:

yet handcuffed in never really making any decisions

this we will never know the extent of. It's easy to pass this off to colbert, but tomlin could have been picking players .

The OL situation is tomlins legacy. Easily half of his tenure he had a bad OL, this year is no different despite the resources for the OL.  He should have replaced cole and Moore and possibly go as far as an in season trade if required.  This is on him, Jones should be at LT, much better than Moore but thats tomlin again.  

Moore, Najee, Adams, Mitch  and cole  are some examples of  'tomlin players' that will start as long as  they can walk. 

[3rivers]

Shannon explains

Edited December 21, 2023 by 3rivers

[43M]

I feel like the culture is just so broken here, that nothing short of a near page one rewrite will TRULY fix things.

That obviously doesn't mean that starting fresh means everything will get better....but we dont have a stable foundation, on the roster or coaching staff.

If it were up to me, over the next 2 offseasons...

Keep GMs.   New and off to a decent head start on their end (aside from awful Trubisky extension).

Completely wipe coaching staff.   Let Khan/Weidl make those decisions.   Stay away, ARII.

On offense, keep Warren, Friermuth, Broderick, Daniels and MAYBE Pickens, Austin and Semulo.   Attempt to trade DJ, Najee and Possibly Pickens.   Daniels and Semulo as stopgap vet leadership.   Austin has upside, although not sure how much.

On defense, keep Keeanu, Herbig, Watt,  Highsmith, Roberts, JPJ and Minkah.   Id attempt to trade Watt for a high return, but no chance it happens.   

Keep Boswell.   Dump Harvin HARD.

Probably a few other role players or young players to hang onto like Cole Holcomb and Spencer Johnson, but everyone else should go.

Unfortunately, I just have a feeling they will hire some cheap OC with some back alley ties to Tomlin or the Steelers and we will get a bunch of tweaks in 23, but "just enough" to get us to an unimpressive 10 or 11 wins next year and help Tomlin keep his job with next to no cultural or foundational improvements for long term stability.

Edited December 22, 2023 by 43M

[August4th]

a guy I know who works with the Steelers media thinks it's 50/50 Tomlin is here next year. He says this season has been wearing Tomlin out. also they apparently like Jayden Daniels 

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, 43M said:

I feel like the culture is just so broken here, that nothing short of a near page one rewrite will TRULY fix things.

That obviously doesn't mean that starting fresh means everything will get better....but we dont have a stable foundation, on the roster or coaching staff.

If it were up to me, over the next 2 offseasons...

Keep GMs.   New and off to a decent head start on their end (aside from awful Trubisky extension).

Completely wipe coaching staff.   Let Khan/Weidl make those decisions.   Stay away, ARII.

On offense, keep Warren, Friermuth, Broderick, Daniels and MAYBE Pickens, Austin and Semulo.   Attempt to trade DJ, Najee and Possibly Pickens.   Daniels and Semulo as stopgap vet leadership.   Austin has upside, although not sure how much.

On defense, keep Keeanu, Herbig, Watt,  Highsmith, Roberts, JPJ and Minkah.   Id attempt to trade Watt for a high return, but no chance it happens.   

Keep Boswell.   Dump Harvin HARD.

Probably a few other role players or young players to hang onto like Cole Holcomb and Spencer Johnson, but everyone else should go.

Unfortunately, I just have a feeling they will hire some cheap OC with some back alley ties to Tomlin or the Steelers and we will get a bunch of tweaks in 23, but "just enough" to get us to an unimpressive 10 or 11 wins next year and help Tomlin keep his job with next to no cultural or foundational improvements for long term stability.

agree with this . Stay away from AR2 but perhaps tomlin too, he can't pick coaches or players it seems

championships - get to .529 so tomlins legacy continues

as much as we want major changes, I doubt much happens. They will HAVE to get another QB somewhere , I can't imagine them keeping mitch   what a fail by colbert unless tomlin pulled for mitch - who knows the story about this signing?  I expect more of the same if tomlin is here. If we lose the last 6, maybe AR2 will have enough and trade the hyped HC for a nice haul. But don't stop there, trade many others and  help rebuild the roster of course. 

Bring back Munchak if possible.  Or is that possible?

 

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, August4th said:

a guy I know who works with the Steelers media thinks it's 50/50 Tomlin is here next year. He says this season has been wearing Tomlin out. also they apparently like Jayden Daniels 

If they get Daniels, it's obvious tomlin has given up on KP. Unfortunately, Daniels might be good enough to keep this team in the .529 range despite all the other issues on the roster and staff.   I was hoping tomlin would be gone and start over, would going 0-6 for the end of the 23' season help that out? All thes eplayers he guarantees starting jobs and allows to misbehave are ruining this team.  

[warfelg]

11 hours ago, August4th said:

a guy I know who works with the Steelers media thinks it's 50/50 Tomlin is here next year. He says this season has been wearing Tomlin out. also they apparently like Jayden Daniels 

This is close to what I heard but it’s the light version.