Will the Ravens ever win the Superbowl with Lamar Jackson?

[Thomas5737]

6 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

6 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

I think the Ravens get credit for that game, it just wasn't a high pressure game for Lamar because the Texan offense only managed a 50 yard FG, otherwise they were shut out. 

Lamar (and the Ravens) play great with a lead. It fits their offense. Mahomes scared them early and it became a high pressure game. Harbaugh made them a one dimensional offense (two really, they were defending the Lamar run and pass) and the offense suffered. 

Harbaugh gets 80% of the blame from me. Lamar's issues were mostly a byproduct of Harbaugh's coaching. 

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It was a high pressure game for Lamar regardless of how the other team's offense did. The pressure was on HIM to perform at a high level. The Titans in 2019 weren't a Superbowl contending team either and they smoked us. In other words, what I'm trying to say is the pressure had nothing to do with HOU directly, it was the pressure of just him playing a good game in the playoffs, period - which he did.

This was Lamar's opportunity to perform like an elite QB, and in the 2nd half he did that and we all thought he turned a corner, only for the KC game to happen and now we're back to where we were before the playoffs even started.

High pressure meaning game on the line stuff, not personal stat collecting pressure, no one cares about that during a game (or shouldn't). 

Lamar is great when they are blowing teams out. He played great against Houston once they got a lead and it was obvious the Texans offense wasn't doing anything. That's a low pressure playoff game. 

In games where the Ravens won by more than 2 scores (17 or more points) Lamar had 12 passing TD and no INT. Nice low pressure games. The other 13 games he had 12 passing TD and 7 INT. They still went 9-4 in those games because it's a pretty darn good team around him. 

He won the MVP for playing below average statistically for 13 games and great for 5 (4 really, he didn't do much in the Seattle game the RBs had 27 carries for 230 yards).

[Dash]

He has the talent so of course he could.  

The talk about him having weapons this year seemed to be a bit overblown though.

Once Dobbins went down Edwards and Hill were serviceable but that rushing attack was still basically all Jackson. Although Mitchell showed some really good things when he played especially with that speed.

Flowers was good but still just a rookie and it showed in his poise during the AFC championship game. Beckham,Agholor,and Bateman were decent but not sure you could list any of their play above WR3. 

Andrews was a top TE as usual most of the season and Likely was pretty good in the starts when Andrews was out. Not sure why there was not many two TE sets when they have two talents like them. 

Just think they still had some upgrades in terms of weapons and didn't get the most out of them. Not saying the offense was bad by any means but the " Jackson has so many weapons and no excuses now " was kind of overstated. 

Besides that he plays in a conference with a top 5 all timer at QB right now and a few more elite QBs. It won't be easy for anyone.

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, El Ramster said:

 

You do shine baby. You really do. It’s always the misunderstood that are the real ones. NGL though that game thread where you thought they were calling you crazy had me rolling. I’m like that’s my dawg. Shoot first ask questions later. 

And of all the Lamar haters, at least you have the stones to admit that's what you are. Although that Thomas guy is not far behind.

[AngusMcFife]

28 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

High pressure meaning game on the line stuff, not personal stat collecting pressure, no one cares about that during a game (or shouldn't). 

Lamar is great when they are blowing teams out. He played great against Houston once they got a lead and it was obvious the Texans offense wasn't doing anything. That's a low pressure playoff game. 

In games where the Ravens won by more than 2 scores (17 or more points) Lamar had 12 passing TD and no INT. Nice low pressure games. The other 13 games he had 12 passing TD and 7 INT. They still went 9-4 in those games because it's a pretty darn good team around him. 

He won the MVP for playing below average statistically for 13 games and great for 5 (4 really, he didn't do much in the Seattle game the RBs had 27 carries for 230 yards).

It's a fancy breakdown, although PFF grade him out as the highest performing QB in the league.

Let me get your input though, from a Ravens coaching/front office perspective. Would you recommend the Ravens just chuck the ball around next year, with Lamar throwing ~40 times a game? They would probably lose 2 or 3 more games, but still make the playoffs, and give Lamar experience being in a pass-first offense all the time. So when teams like the Chiefs force them to throw all game, at least he'll be used to it.

Having Lamar throw 25 times in a game and blowing teams out 35-13 could be worse for his development than throwing 40 times a game in a 28-27 game, even if they sometimes lose. If they increase the reps, they'll increase his learning curve.

[El Ramster]

4 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

It's a fancy breakdown, although PFF grade him out as the highest performing QB in the league.

Let me get your input though, from a Ravens coaching/front office perspective. Would you recommend the Ravens just chuck the ball around next year, with Lamar throwing ~40 times a game? They would probably lose 2 or 3 more games, but still make the playoffs, and give Lamar experience being in a pass-first offense all the time. So when teams like the Chiefs force them to throw all game, at least he'll be used to it.

Having Lamar throw 25 times in a game and blowing teams out 35-13 could be worse for his development than throwing 40 times a game in a 28-27 game, even if they sometimes lose. If they increase the reps, they'll increase his learning curve.

I don’t think he’s saying that. Having Lamar throw for 40 when 25 is the sweet spot would be asinine. So here’s a story that many people don’t know or didn’t know. Dwight was one of the best pick n roll players ever, he was so good he made it look easy. Shaq said he couldn’t a score without it and Dwight went with the I’ll show you! It worked but it was never the same because he wanted to prove someone he shouldn’t have cared they were wrong. Dwight and Harden were the deadliest pick n roll players ever.. But things ended badly. 
 

What he’s saying is that if Lamar is needed to throw 40+ times something went terribly wrong and is no longer in his comfort zone. He’s not a gunslinger like that, he’s out of his element of controlling the game and pace… The data backs it up but it’s a small sample size. I would just love to see Lamar go crazy in the run game and just go beserk, take the hits and show you’re not scared. He’s super capable of that. But he hasn’t. I was waiting for that legendary 150-200 yard rushing game. It never came. 

[AngusMcFife]

7 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

I don’t think he’s saying that. Having Lamar throw for 40 when 25 is the sweet spot would be asinine. So here’s a story that many people don’t know or didn’t know. Dwight was one of the best pick n roll players ever, he was so good he made it look easy. Shaq said he couldn’t a score without it and Dwight went with the I’ll show you! It worked but it was never the same because he wanted to prove someone he shouldn’t have cared they were wrong. Dwight and Harden were the deadliest pick n roll players ever.. But things ended badly. 
 

What he’s saying is that if Lamar is needed to throw 40+ times something went terribly wrong and is no longer in his comfort zone. He’s not a gunslinger like that, he’s out of his element of controlling the game and pace… The data backs it up but it’s a small sample size. I would just love to see Lamar go crazy in the run game and just go beserk, take the hits and show you’re not scared. He’s super capable of that. But he hasn’t. I was waiting for that legendary 150-200 yard rushing game. It never came. 

Yes but I'm asking you and other Lamar haters, if you were Ravens coaches and front office, what would you do to accelerate his growth as a passer?

My opinion is that it doesn't make sense to have Lamar throw it 37+ times during the regular season only two  (2) times, then in the playoffs have an all-pass offense with 37 passes in the cold rain against a great pass defense.

If throwing 37 times is a possible gameplan for the playoffs, then the coaches/FO need to implement that in the regular season more often so it's a normal part of how they play.

BTW Lamar is 3-1 in his last 4 games throwing 40 times, so it's not that he can't do it. It just seems dumb to think you can pull that kind of a game out of your hat when you don't do it very often (had to go back to 2021).

[Thomas5737]

16 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

It's a fancy breakdown, although PFF grade him out as the highest performing QB in the league.

Let me get your input though, from a Ravens coaching/front office perspective. Would you recommend the Ravens just chuck the ball around next year, with Lamar throwing ~40 times a game? They would probably lose 2 or 3 more games, but still make the playoffs, and give Lamar experience being in a pass-first offense all the time. So when teams like the Chiefs force them to throw all game, at least he'll be used to it.

Having Lamar throw 25 times in a game and blowing teams out 35-13 could be worse for his development than throwing 40 times a game in a 28-27 game, even if they sometimes lose. If they increase the reps, they'll increase his learning curve.

I'm not saying that. He has played in 90 some games, experience and repetition are already there. He should do what gives his team the best chance to win, every game. That is being a threat with his legs which along with the Ravens good ground game with the running backs opens up easy throws with little pressure most of the time. It will never get any easier than it is right now for him. Take advantage of it while he can.

Prior to his last game of the regular season he had 24 total TDs and 13 turnovers. He was in the conversation for MVP but was 4th or 5th. One great game with everyone being okay or worse the last 2 weeks gave him the MVP by default. If reps were a concern he would have played that final game. It isn't.

[MaddHatter]

For those arguing for the “choker” label, is that something you can outgrow? Develop beyond?

 

 I mean is there a difference between a QB who wins 2-3 Rings in the first 6 years of his career and a QB who wins 2-3 Rings in the last 6 years of his career?  Essentially if Mahomes wins a ring this year then plays another 10yrs and never wins another, and Lamar goes on to win 3 rings and make half a dozen AFCC’s and both finish with similar records, accolades, etc, was one a “choker” and the other not?

[El Ramster]

11 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes but I'm asking you and other Lamar haters, if you were Ravens coaches and front office, what would you do to accelerate his growth as a passer?

My opinion is that it doesn't make sense to have Lamar throw it 37+ times during the regular season only two  (2) times, then in the playoffs have an all-pass offense with 37 passes in the cold rain against a great pass defense.

If throwing 37 times is a possible gameplan for the playoffs, then the coaches/FO need to implement that in the regular season more often so it's a normal part of how they play.

BTW Lamar is 3-1 in his last 4 games throwing 40 times, so it's not that he can't do it. It just seems dumb to think you can pull that kind of a game out of your hat when you don't do it very often (had to go back to 2021).

Im saying he doesn’t need to pass it. I’m saying use your legs more. 

[AngusMcFife]

8 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

I'm not saying that. He has played in 90 some games, experience and repetition are already there. He should do what gives his team the best chance to win, every game. That is being a threat with his legs which along with the Ravens good ground game with the running backs opens up easy throws with little pressure most of the time. It will never get any easier than it is right now for him. Take advantage of it while he can.

Prior to his last game of the regular season he had 24 total TDs and 13 turnovers. He was in the conversation for MVP but was 4th or 5th. One great game with everyone being okay or worse the last 2 weeks gave him the MVP by default. If reps were a concern he would have played that final game. It isn't.

Fair points but I disagree. If being a dominant regular season team doesn't translate to playoff success, you need to play the regular season as training for the playoffs, even if it means fewer wins.

If in the playoffs you know a team will plug all the gaps and shut down the run, you better be ready to execute an all-pass attack. The Ravens just don't prepare their players for that in their dominant regular seasons.

[AngusMcFife]

3 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

Im saying he doesn’t need to pass it. I’m saying use your legs more. 

Yeah but if you have 6 rushers all slowly collapsing the pocket, there's nowhere to go. Gotta make the quick hitters.

[El Ramster]

1 minute ago, MaddHatter said:

For those arguing for the “choker” label, is that something you can outgrow? Develop beyond?

 

 I mean is there a difference between a QB who wins 2-3 Rings in the first 6 years of his career and a QB who wins 2-3 Rings in the last 6 years of his career?  Essentially if Mahomes wins a ring this year then plays another 10yrs and never wins another, and Lamar goes on to win 3 rings and make half a dozen AFCC’s and both finish with similar records, accolades, etc, was one a “choker” and the other not?

Rivers never shook the label, some people hold it against Marino. That was a huge case against Elway. You’re only explaining best case scenarios. 4 TDS and 5 ints in 5 losses and offense is avg 10 PPG. Why doesn’t the OC get the credit for the MVP but all the blame for the playoffs? That doesn’t sit right with me. 

[El Ramster]

Just now, AngusMcFife said:

Yeah but if you have 6 rushers all slowly collapsing the pocket, there's nowhere to go. Gotta make the quick hitters.

Then idk. He hit the hot reads vs Houston the second half. Why couldn’t he do it vs the Chiefs? He didn’t adapt? Idk you tell me. Why couldn’t he? There were plenty of chances were he could have taken off. He hesitated. And that’s fine it happens. I was just waiting for that take over X factor to kick in. 

[MaddHatter]

6 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

Rivers never shook the label, some people hold it against Marino. That was a huge case against Elway. You’re only explaining best case scenarios. 4 TDS and 5 ints in 5 losses and offense is avg 10 PPG. Why doesn’t the OC get the credit for the MVP but all the blame for the playoffs? That doesn’t sit right with me. 

Rivers and Marino never won one… I’m asking if you label him a choker now, are you saying he can develop out of being a choker and become clutch? If not, how do you explain Peyton? How would you explain Lamar if he wins 3 before his career is over? If you can develop out of it, can you regress into it? IE Mahomes is “clutch” and gets 3 Rings in first 6 years but then never wins another, plays poorly the rest of his career in the postseason, never even makes it back to an AFCC, did he develop into a choker? 

[MaddHatter]

1 hour ago, El Ramster said:

He carried the colts for years baby. 

The Worst Defense To Ever Win A Super Bowl: The 2006 Colts. 
 

I love him. Lamar has plenty of time. That’s the good thing.. But you’re a Dak guy so I see why you’re doing this. 

Still waiting to hear how “Peyton carried the Colts” with his 3 TDs and 7 INTs that postseason, including his 0TD 2ONT game vs Bal they won 15-9 off the leg of Vinny and their “worst D ever”